Xbox One's Used Games Policy Still Being Finalised

204
Richard Walker

The muddled and oh-so messy saga surrounding Xbox One's position on used games is still all over the place it seems, and for now, we're still not being given any straight answers on the subject.

Xbox Support has tweeted responses to fans on the subject claiming that the information released thus far is incorrect, while Major Nelson says that the used games policy is still being finalised and the eventual aim is to ensure "it would work like it works today on Xbox 360."

"We can confirm that the article stating Xbox One will charge fees to play used games is NOT correct," Xbox Support tweeted on the day of the reveal.

"We are months away from the launch of Xbox One and policy decisions are still being finalized," Major Nelson told Gematsu. "When they are, we will let you know."

Major Nelson went on to add the following: "As I noted earlier we're still working on some of the policies... But our goal is that it would work like it works today on Xbox 360."

It's all as clear as mud. Microsoft's Phil Harrison has failed to shed much light on the subject too, stating that game discs will still work like Xbox 360 titles, but with an Xbox One game locked to a single account after installation. Nothing like an Xbox 360 disc then.

We're still waiting on firm, definitive responses regarding Xbox One's used games policy, and it looks like we won't be getting them until Microsoft finalises where it stands on the whole issue. Gah!

[Via OXM | Thanks, Blumpenstein]

Comments
204
  • And the time to be straight with me, the consumer is fast approaching Microsoft. Waiting until the last minute to tell me whether or not major deal-breaking features are present or not will only end badly - for you...
  • So does it charge or not. They say the report that you pay is wrong, but then they say their policy is still been finalized. If there is no fee then there is no need for a policy, I'm so confused.
  • What is there to finalize? Either they allow it or they don't. Either the XBone is consumer-friendly, or it is anti-consumer. The only thing they haven't finalized is whether they want the backlash now/later, or they want to actually sell some consoles.
  • Sounds like they're feeling the backlash from their stupid decisions and are backpedaling very fast.
  • I hope MS realizes that if they do charge a fee, this is a HUGE factor that will make some people NOT buy their console. Many people are not willing to pay the full launch price and so, buy games used. Or some people lend their games to their friends. Who does this actually profit? Microsoft? The publishers? Ugh..... PS4 will be a no-brainer for me if it ends up this way.
  • It's like they're seeking out how far they can go.
  • If they want it to work like it is today then why not leave it as it is today? If it isn't broke don't fix it!
  • MS backtracking as fast as they can by the looks of it.
  • Maybe you should finalize your damn console before you announce you pricks.
  • sounds like backtracking to me, they al;l seemed pretty clear on it the past couple of days...
  • Jesus, you'd think a company like microsoft would get their shit together before this big announcement. This is just a big mess.
  • Be wary of corporate double-talk. Remember, it "doesn't require an internet connection to play" but DOES require a connection to install games and update at least once every 24 hrs. So while they say it will not charge to PLAY used games, does not mean they will not charge you to INSTALL used games. Very different terms being used there. They will find a away to suck your pocket, don't worry.
  • I find it hard to believe
  • While I have very rarely bought used games, I never would've bought games like XCOM or Rage if it wasn't for GameFly. Based on the snippets of interviews I've seen on the subject this issue will make or break me getting the XB1. If I'm still able to use GameFly with XB1 I will be pretty at ease with anything. I'm hoping Microsoft listens to the outcry and changes their policy. But perhaps this explains why EA changed their online pass policy right before the XB1 was announced?
  • that tweet was BS http://majornelson.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-and-used-games/ they still charge a fee
  • One big whole mess, after the presentation it feels as if it was revealed all to early and they need to work on a few issues to back the support of there current audience rather than push the majority away.
  • No worries MS. The internet kids will cry and whine regardless of what you do. Most will overreact. Just the way people are these days
  • This does sound a lot like they intended to charge to play used games on the Xbox One, but they're seriously thinking about reconsidering that decision based on the uproar from the community. That would explain why certain employees don't know their ass from their elbow and all we're getting is contradictory statements.
  • All that Microsoft has shown me the past few days is that they clearly are not actually ready to reveal the console. They prematurely revealed it to try and get some of the pre-E3 glory with Sony & Nintendo and the whole thing has been a mess with misunderstandings, flip-flopping on stances and so on. "You have to pay full price to play at a friend's house" "No you don't" "You have to pay a fee to play Used" "No you don't" "You do not need to be always online" "You pretty much do" What is it, Microsoft? Make up your minds. Next you'll see them say you CAN play XBLA/360 games, but not (PS4 streaming style, likely).
  • What I don't get is, people moaned about the Xbox one reveal event and said it was worse than the playstation 4 reveal. Both of these events were penned down as a console reveal, and only Microsoft revealed theirs with Sony yet to reveal it, and with e3 around the corner, what would be the point in showing off loads of games at a console reveal?
  • I don't see why people are pissing and bitching. I for once see MS's and the developers side. You guys have no idea how much or how little this "charge" COULD BE. Hell, if they charge you $10-$20 to save a disc to your Xbox and never having to load it up again, then so be it. Its MUCH cheaper than going to GameStop, buying a used disc, and pay to install it. SIMPLE SCENARIO: Your friend who owns the game can bring and play his copy to your house and play off his profile, right? Well, say you like the game. Hell, your friend JUST paid $60-$70 to buy it, and you'd like to keep it too. Just pay the $10-$20 (whatever) 1 time fee and keep it. Besides, I'm getting REAL TIRED of the GameStop tyrant.
  • More importantly: Will it blend?
  • true words, although i think that the game industry is rich enough
  • http://majornelson.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-and-used-games/ the tweet is a lie
  • I don't know about all your people whining about every little thing, but I'm getting XB1 regardless if they want a monthly blood sample. Get over it, it's gonna be better than before and I can't wait. Especially for all these multimedia conveniences.
  • Why make a revel other then show that they actually have a system and not just a controller(PS4). All the important information is either cloudy and non committal or will be announced at E3. @14 I agree with you as I also use Gamefly and Redbox to rent games that I would not buy at full price. Most everyone is concerned about used games and you are the first person that I saw think of the game rental side of things. I would be pissed off if I paid full price for a game like Aliens colonial marines. Some games are rentals only.
  • I'm not surprised if Microsoft is softening on the used game fee idea REAL quick.
  • Sounds to me like they have realised all gamers are pissed of with them (to say the least) and 'being finalized' means being changed to suit us. I think they fear loss of sales due to pre-owned fees, and that's not what Microsoft wants now, is it?
  • @#22 If you think your "simple scenario" will work like that you are deluded as hell. If that were true, you could get 8-10 people just pooling their money and buying new games. Example: 10 people buy one $60 copy of Madden 60 / 10 =6 Add $10 - $20 You just got Madden for $16-$26. You think EA will stand for that
  • if it gets locked to one account, M$ will lose allot of costumers. who the hell in there right mind will want to put a game on the system that is only usable by one account, unless you pay for addition accounts?
  • @23 even more importantly:will it play Crysis?
  • If they want it like the 360, why don't they DO that? They decide what happens nobody else. This sounds like more bullshit. They want to charge extra money, but the're not sure what the backlash of this will be, so they are ass murky as they can be. But if they can get away with it, they will.
  • @22 I see their side too. And I buy new games, but long after release when they are $20. Used games I only buy if they aren't available new anymore. My concern is LONG TERM. I still buy and play games on older consoles regularly. In 10-15 years, will Microsoft still be running these "services" (aka DRM servers)? Will I be able to buy a game I missed, or even play a game I own already, in 2025? This whole scenario is VERY short sighted. For me, I'd have no problem with blocking used games, as long as the games are still available to be purchased new from the developers in some manner, and the pricing follows the standard model where it drops over time, or is at least available on deep sales regularly. I can see consoles in the future going all digital like Steam, but charging $60+ and never going down other than the occasional Deal of the Week sale.
  • M$ have been the arrogant areseholes sony were with the PS3 and they are now the laughing stock of this next gen, amazing how success goes to peoples heads, they think they have a loyal fan base that will tolerate any old shit but its come back on them and bit them on the tits. its no coincidence that EA touts a special partnership with M$ then says they are scrapping online passes days before M$ reveal ove nothing new game wise. they are getting pollitical now and just delyaing the real confirmation as their rep is in tatters right now, i wouldnt take one of these consoles if you gave me one
  • My biggest problem is the mandatorry 24 hour online check. And I can't understand people accept it, it's basically the same as the police demanding they need a key to your house and are allowed to check up on you everyday. I ask you how many people would accept that.
  • love how much abuse microsoft still get on this issue, i for one am not arsed if they charge for pre ownee games, i am however bothered if they charge people on the same console why should my brothers have to pay again for a game i brought, it should work like current dlc and preowned should be priced so it's still cheaper than new say £5 for activation at most
  • Good news. Still plan on buying my games new but I like to trade my games in towards new ones so its good to hear I should be able to still do that.
  • @37 why should M$ get a cut of money for used games not made by them?
  • There starting to feel immense heat from media, gamers and even news. Multiple times they confirmed used-games, there only taking it back because there stocks are going down and all this negative feedback.
  • There's no confusion at all about their stance they've just had to backtrack because of the outrage from fans.
  • MS have a lot of work to do this time to be able to match Sony, both consoles running the same architecture so there will be none of this "the PS4 is harder to program for" this time round and Sony already have a big advantage(I'm not going to count all the media stuff and DRM yet till we know everything) BUT Microsoft 8Gb 2133Mhz DDR3 - Sony 8Gb 5500Mhz GDDR5 Microsoft Memory B/W 68.3Gb/s - Sony Memory B/W 176Gb/s Microsoft GPU 768 Cores - Sony GPU 1152 Cores Microsoft 1.23 TFLOPS - Sony 1.84 TFLOPS (Also lets not forget that Xbox One Reserves 3Gb of the RAM for OS, because of the media guff)
  • @17 You're absolutely right. No matter what the internet will continue to be the internet.
  • #42 damn the PS4 is a beast of a machine.
  • @36 im with you on that
  • The fact of the matter is, a friend, a sibling, ANYONE, shouldn't have to PAY to play my game. It's been that way for fucking YEARS! Friends didn't have to pay when I swapped NES/SNES games with them years ago, why is that changing now??? I understand money is tight, but screwing over the consumer is NOT the way to go...
  • maybe they should have agreed to not say anything on the matter until it was sorted out. Phil Harrison is such a cock anyway, he should of stayed at Sony
  • As a fan of the XBOX 360 and the PC (Windows Platform), I simply cannot fathom how MS is dropping the ball like this in it's P.R. You don't have a press release and the questions asked afterwards, you don't give a big resounding 'maybe' as a final answer. This announcement has been one hell of a mess.
  • Reading between the lines... Microsoft execs are bricking it as all their bullshit strategies are getting such negative feedback that they've finally realised that a lot of xbox users are going to convert to the PS4 if they implement them. I think their gambling on brand loyalty enabling them to get away with it. Their probably waiting on their pre-order figures ahead of E3 before they decide if it's worth the risk financially... Each to their own but they can go suck a dick if what's been reported in the last few days is true. I'll be getting a PS4 and I know quite a few others that will do the same.
  • If they make us pay or buying a pre owned game they will not only be destroying there own reputation but the economy aswell. High street game shops will soon go under. More jobs lost. Microsoft hope you make the right decision.
  • the PS4 is looking better with every bit on xbox one info i read
  • Is this company being run by Mickey Mouse? I've never been one to choose one platform or the other, but for next gen I could very well be passing on Xbox for the first time.
  • Don't forget that households that have more than one console, such as one in the family room for you and one in your kids room. Having to pay a fee just so the parents and kids can play the same game is stupid. I think this fee more than anything else will kill the xb1. If the fee goes away I think it can do fine.
  • the real problem about this is its enforced monopoly which is illegal.
  • I love how Major Nelson (and by extension MicroSoft) thinks that this line is somehow enough to assuage people's concerns: "Another piece of clarification around playing games at a friend’s house – should you choose to play your game at your friend’s house, there is no fee to play that game while you are signed in to your profile." As if no one would follow up with the logical question of: "Okay, what happens when we're at my friends house and he wants to play my game on his account?" Because the answer to this unasked and obvious question has got to be that there'll be a fee involved. I can't see any other way it could go given that they've made the distinction in the first place.
  • Microsoft is doing a far better job selling people PS4s than Sony would ever do.
  • I would just be worried about ms deciding to allow used games and then after selling a bunch of units. however far down the road,they decide to patch in some anti used update or something.And with ea getting rid of online passes makes me wonder if sony has the same anti used game thing in mind.
  • @56 That's got to be the single best comment I've read these past 3 days. Well done, Sir. Well done, indeed.
  • you would think by making no used games you would greatly GREATLY diminish your margin of people who are willing to buy your product. not to mention how much money gamestop (the main supplier of your system and games) will lose and prob have to end up shutting a lot of stores down. think about it... alright.
  • so basically wit until E3 to hear the final details
  • I really would like if MS would be honest and giva us all definitiv answres to our questions. I am sick of this it might be ,we will announce and so on. I am sick as well of the gaming industry whining about how much money they loose because of all these bad ppl buying second hand games and having fun without the Publisher or Developer getting any money for it. I buy a used Book, Music CD, DVD or BR or a fucking Car. Does GM or Toyota whine about the bad ppl buying thier used cars ? NO WHY NOT ? Because most times the seller uses to Money to buy a new one !!! Same is for Games. All the talk about cretivity, intellectual propery and WTF ? How much of these were put by Designers and Engineers in the construction and design of a car ? For the record: i dont have bought i single second hand game in my entire life.
  • Here's my guess: Yes, you can sell used games to retail and then buy them just as you can today. BUT, they're going to have to get a new code from Microsoft when you do so, adding another step to he turnaround. Or maybe the code is on the disc and they just have to register it as "sold" so you can't access it in the Cloud anymore. So, yeah, it'll be like it is nowadays. Same as when you try to give your game to a friend or something. They'll get a prompt asking if it's their's now or do they want to pay for a new "copy". The former would revoke your access to the game on the cloud while the latter wouldn't. That's my guess how it'll end up. It's just a downside of being able to install our games to the Xbox.
  • The online connection part being required at some point every so often has put me off the XB1. If I can't afford to pay my internet bill for a month or two because something else came up, I'd rather not have a $300-400 paper weight that I can't play or use, plus the amount I would have spent on games I couldn't play. MS needs to pull their heads out of their asses.
  • Pre-owned fee + no backward compatibility = no day one buy for me . I have a backlog of about 10 games ,that will keep me going for a while . Plus there are all the new releases i still have to get .
  • The amount of hate MS is getting isnt going to get much higher Sony, now is the best time to announce that you arent going to charge people to play used games on the PS4 and maximise your sales. Conversely, while the anger of gamers at this policy is at its highest now is also probably the best time to annouce that you WILL charge players to play used games. Unfortunately with EA scrapping their online pass completely the latter seems to be the more likely answer. Im happy sticking with this generation for now.
  • firtly neither company will piss off Gamestop or its subsidaires, half off all the videogame economy goes through that one company. neither EA or Activision is big enough to get ms to side with them over gamestop. secondly if they are gonna charge us like that im sure used game sales will only rise. id rather buy the game used a couple months later for half of the retail price then pay for the codes. if i have to pay extra to let my nephew, friend, son, etc play my games, ill buy whatever console doesnt do that. also remember there might be more console reveals at e3 with the Steambox likely finnaly being announced.
  • if it's still beig finalised than that means if a lot people make enough noise, fees and games being locked to your account definitley won't happen.
  • I think they will use a GTA IV PC version kind of system, where you must be online or use the phone to activate or revoke the license...
  • To be honest, I actually don't mind a 'fee' as long as it's within reason, and it's made aware that a majority of this goes back to the developers, because the amount of studios going into administration and being shut down is just ludicrous. Or at least concoct a system Microsoft that allows friends or siblings to lend games to one another using a coding system via Live that permits use on a second device. If anyone can make sense of this and explain or expand on it, please be my guest!
  • @34,35 & 37: I agree. You've also saved me a lot of typing.
  • Why don't they just keep it the same as the 360 in the sense if you put in a disc you can play it whenever you want, but if you want to install it to play without the disc it becomes locked to your account? I don't like installing games and i'd rather just put the disc in then deal with all this nonsense.
  • I wish MS would get their heads out of their asses, stop bullshitting us, and just give us some straight answers.
  • "Xbox, you're going down a path i cannot follow."
  • whats the point in releasing the games on disk if theres not point in me using it again? keep things the way they are and cut this bullshit fee for used games things and break your contract with EA they will ruin you
  • I think the main problem is that they want users to be able to install the gameto the Xbox and then launch it without the disk but that creates problems. Why don't they make it so a brand new game can be installed once and be played without the disk but then if a users wants to install it so they won't need the disk they pay a fee to the DEVELOPER/PUBLISHER not MS.
  • Microsoft obviously thought they were big enough to get away with it and are now backtracking at the backlash in my opinion.
  • I have 3 XBOX 360s and planeed on 3 One's for me and my 2 kids. If MS thinks I am buying the same game 3 times so we can all play it on our own console they're nuts. Sony is gonna drop this bomb too real soon, just so you's know fanboys! Yes I understand, as of now anyway, you can play the same game on the same console, thats not the way it works in my house. We all got our own XBOX so no one fights over it. If I cant share a game in my own household, NO sale on the One, guaranteed. Speasking of this, in a way.... Have you assholes at MS fixed the retarded NAT issue yet? (where only one console per house can have open NAT) That has driven me bat shit crazy for years!!!
  • There are so many things wrong with this whole scenario, not the least of which is that the M$ suits are all contradicting one another, and don't themselves seem to know what's going on. Among many other things, I call BS on this whole forced installation/online activation issue. Supposedly it's being done because blu ray drives are "slow." Funny, that hasn't been an issue with the PS3. And even if it was a real issue, you could still combat piracy by simply requiring the disc to stay in the drive while playing - y'know, like the way it is if you *choose* to install a game now on the 360.
  • What are they finalizing? Easy They just put a gun to GameStop's head, and they need to see how they react, and cut a deal.
  • @79 so you'll buy 3 systems that'll prob be 400-600 bucks plus tax and change and not 3 games that 65+ and some change??
  • @81 forget about gamestop they'll still make money with new games its companys like gamefly i feel bad about
  • They keep digging themselves into a bigger hole the more they contradict themselves.
  • Easy decision Microsoft. Don't do it or risk losing a large amount of consumers to Sony. Want the Xbox One to sell like the Xbox 360 does in Japan, except everywhere? Go ahead, I wouldn't.
  • I rarely ever buy a used game. The way I look at it is if I really want a game badly, I will buy it the first day it comes out. My biggest issue is all the games I don't really want but still have some interest in playing, even easy games for achievements, I rent them from Gamefly. No used games would kill Gamefly once PS3 & 360 games stop being produced. I don't want to buy every single game but now I wouldn't be able to rent anything from Gamefly unless I want to pay a fee for each game on top of the membership fee on top of Xbox Live? And there were rumors that the fee would be as much as a new game. Ridiculous! And don't even get me started on there stupid tv shit on the xbox one. What's the point of that? I have DirecTV satellite with every channel, HD, & 2 DVRs that I pay $160 a month for. I would never watch TV on my Xbox. If I want to browse the internet, I would use my laptop and I certainly wouldn't be using the shitty Internet Explorer browser. I just want to play games on it. What's so hard about that?
  • Seeing how I rent and borrow every game I play, I hope it remains the way it is today. Come on, Microsoft... I already pay for your Gold membership, leave the games alone!
  • To all of you who say PS4 is the way to go, before you even know how it looks like, what specs it has (because remember? The PS4 "presentation" was "here is just a controller"-bullshit): PLEASE, LEAVE THIS FORUM RIGHT NOW! We 360 players don't want and need you here, we don't want to hear your whining and bitching and your empty threats. Just leave, ps3trophies ist just a click away. Hush, out you go...
  • Sounds like backtracking to me
  • Without speaking of 'right or wrong' or getting into 'rights people think they should have' let's look at the facts. Game Developers are losing money and this is evidenced by many of them shutting down. Often it is said that they blame piracy and the used game market; this is evidenced by looking at the recent trend towards pre-launch bonuses. So say that games for Microsoft's new system require 1.) the game disc, and 2.) a certificate to be downloaded in much the same way we have on-disc DLC unlocked, in order to play the game. This 'digital certificate' is inside new copies of the game and is specific to a XBox Live gamertag (or possibly an XBox Live family package?). In order to play a used game or a copy borrowed from a friend a one-time fee of $10 (around the same amount needed to rent a game). What will this accomplish? Wouldn't 'Game Company A' launch a title exclusive to the XBox or even months before the PS4 if they had some guarantee that they would sell more NEW copies of a game - thus increasing net revenue? We all know that system exclusive games are a big part of what leads a consumer to buy one console or another. And what better way to sell more consoles than to listen to the concerns of their customers: the developers.
  • Why are the Xbox fanboys so much more childish than the Playstation ones.. lol ie. #88 and on topic; the more Microsoft change their story, the less credibility they have in my eyes Doesn't matter what gets revealed at E3! No Xbox One for me! PS4
  • Microsoft already lost me as a customer for the Xbox. I already bought a pc, simply cause they took too long to confirm all those rumours such as always online, etc. And now I'm selling all my Xbox games. And personally, I am really happy with my gaming pc. Games are chaper and doesn't cost to play online, and more players to play with. Plus I can buy a controller if I want one, and I go do computer stuff while playing a game
  • @70 Finally a microsoft/xbox sympathizer that has a brain and doesnt resort to posts about whiny fans and complainers... You sir are to be commended... It's about the only post i'v seen defending Microsoft in 3 days with a level head and intelligence on the issue. Microsoft has done nothing but blown it the last 3 days and it's clear now they are backpedaling, and on damage control bigtime... Anyone with half a brain can see the epic fail of the entire situation, and 90% of the Microsoft defenders posts are either inaccurate, lying about Sony inaccuracies, or just immature and/or denying the situation... I respect your level head on the situation. #88 is a prime example. Stick to the subject matter... and leave the complaining whiny Sony posts at the door thank you. Find something relevant or some intelligent defense for microsoft and forget the console war bs... I am against a fee of any kind for this, it's rediculous, but if we are being force fed this crap, lets hope its reasonable.. $60(or full retail price of said game at time of code unlock) is a joke... I too, may be able to back Microsoft however, if the price is reasonable...
  • One way or another they need to explain the situation CLEARLY. Massive confusion is worse than just being straight with people. Get on the same page for god's sake.
  • I just want a straight answer on kinect, if it has to be connected then that right there will stop me from buying the xbox one. Big brother is watching...
  • Doesn't bother me, used market is bad for the industry, the ones that make the most out of it are the stores.
  • MS would be very wise not to charge a fee to play a used game.
  • The smart way to do it would be a brand new game comes with a one time use code to install to your GT. Others could still play the game on their Xbone & GT however if they choose to install then they would have to pay a fee for the rights of owning said game.
  • you guys should go read Major Nelson's page. 3,535 comments on used games an KINECT spread the word guys ;) http://majornelson.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-and-used-games/
  • No fee means no fee. Didn't your teachers tell you to check your sources. Xbox support is now repeating itself over and over again about no fee, no required online. Please post legitimately sourced material, thank you. The reveal was to show to a broader audience what the Xbox can do for them. My wife was actually excited about the Xbox one. Microsoft thank you. It was about extras so they don't have to go over them at E3. E3 will be for games. They specially have said this over and over during the reveal, and in subsequent interview. Am I on the wrong website? I thought this was an Xbox Fan Site. A few of the writers of this website are becoming notorious for their anti-Xbox posts. Why are you working for an Xbox website?
  • The technology advances of today make me wish we were still in 2004 to some extent. Like we all want the Xbox One to play games. Most of us (by far) would still rather use our regular stuff for tv viewing. Same thing for Internet: we have laptops and computers for that. Just give us GAMES and we will be happy!!!!
  • There back tracking..............
  • Maybe all the negative buzz of no used forced M$ to change their policy.
  • Why not just make all games download only? No discs=no used games. Problem solved.
  • @100 Just because people are fans of one product from a company doesn't mean they need to just accept anti-consumer bullshit being built into successor products. The fact that on this site and other "fan" sites that there is so much outrage actually speaks a lot to consumers not willing to put up with anti-consumer business practices, and should be commended rather than criticized. Granted, some people like you and Microsoft seem to think we're all sheep, who will just buy up everything that the company says is good. And sure, there are plenty of dudebrahs who will get their Madden/CoD box this fall, but there are still plenty of us who pay attention and wont stand for it.
  • Charging money to "activate/play" used games or games that you borrow from a friend jut because the developers aren't getting enough money..... Even if it is a small charge like 10-15 dollars it doesn't matter, it is still principle of the matter. In other words to showcase this lets say you have two friends and one has to get to work but his car is busted so he asks his friend if he can borrow his car to get to work. According to Microsoft the friend would have to say, "Sure, no problem. You are gonna have to pay the dealership where I bought it money first but after that you can borrow it." It is just fundamentally wrong, also those who see the business side of this fail to mention how used games/borrowed games come into existence, someone has to buy it first. The publishers and developers already made their money from the game and now they are just milking people for more.
  • Hey guys, let's just hold out on the confirmed rumors. Oh... Wait.
  • @104: Except not everyone has a great or fast internet connection though. Max Payne 3 took about 45 minutes to download for me from Steam and that is like 27 gigabytes. People with slow internet connections would pry take up to five or six hours for that game and other games too download as well. Add in the people that have spotty service that disconnects at times and instead it is a recipe for disaster. With discs people aren't at the mercy of their internet connections to wait to play a game. I think the gaming industry is worrying too much about used games. They treating used games almost as bad as piracy and the two aren't even close. Some of my favorite gaming franchises that I have gotten into over the years were because of buying used games. I bought the first Mass Effect used and loved it so much that I bought the Mass Effect 2 and 3 Collector's Editions when they were released.
  • Or we can just not buy the Xbox One
  • Allow used games at no issue, add backward compatibility and loose the daily connection and Kinect crap and I'm gold. Those are the major issues I have with this so far.
  • Where the fuck have the good ol days gone? Open tray, insert game and play. Am i gonna have to scream a war chant to make the damn thing work?
  • why do people bitch at least microsoft let them know what they are planning, something that steam already does.
  • Maybe the PS4 reveal made Microsoft push ahead a little too far ahead of schedule.
  • And the backtracking begins..
  • @1 How are they waiting until the last minute? Pretty sure they just released the first details...
  • As long I can borrow a game from a friend and play on the One I'm fine.(not sure about the spelling for borrow, but i'm dutch, so pls forgive me if i made a mistake)
  • @#115 Microsoft have been designing this console for years. Microsoft have also let these rumors run-wild for months about always-online DRM, used-games policy (or lack-thereof), and multiple other anti-consumer practices. They have had more than enough time since the PS4 reveal, or since Adam Orth made those asinine comments, to set a firm stance. They themselves have said that "all" of our questions would be answered on May 21st, and now they will spend the next several months in damage control mode, because they didn't have the foresight to predict this kind of backlash. I, like many others it seems, have been jerked around long enough, and have every right to ask these kinds of questions. For Microsoft to ignore them, or to downplay them further, will only hurt them more, when they inevitably confirm them anyways.
  • Basically, no backwards compat, or charging me to play used games is the biggest turn off for me. I love some of my 360 titles, and like to collect them. If they reverse course on these two points, I will buy the XB1. But if they don't (at least one day one) I'm not going to be able to validate the cost of this new console.
  • The minute you start telling consumers what they can or cannot do with their own property is the minute you lose a lot of sales. Bad move Microsoft. Too greedy for me. He said it at the beginning of the conference. A 65 billion dollar a year industry!! Its pure GREED to restrict used games. I'm losing sleep over the whole principal of it. I don't care about TV, apps, sports fantasy whatever. I care about GAMES! I care about the future of gaming and I care about my rights as a consumer. This reveal SHOULD have been amazing. People should be talking about how awesome the new console is going to be and how excited they are for it. Instead we are pissed off and disappointed. Shame on you Microsoft.
  • I can't wait for E3. MS have pretty much F*cked up. Sony haven't even shown their console and their PS4 unveil blew me away. So many cool gaming features and intersting things, like having a friend helping you over the net if you're stuck somewhere. And we have MS who did'nt show any gaming related about the effin console... And they flopped, since every gamer where pretty much disappointed. Although Quantum Break looked awesome. Oh and COD Dog ! hahaha no one cares about COD anymore...
  • ^Says the guy with a cod GT pic.
  • @93 I agree with you completely about how the fees better be inexpensive, however, i dont think they will be. in fact it only makes sense to ship a one time redemption code with a new copy of the game, and then make it so all who buy it used (borrow it, etc.) pay full price to redeem it again. Lets say i buy a game for $60. It comes with the redemption code so i use it, obviously free of charge. Then, i beat the game and sell it. the person who picks up the game is going to have to pay full retail price for the redemption otherwise MS just lost money. if the redemption code was $30 or something, i could lend it to a friend who could just buy the pass for $30 when the game cost $60. So i really dont understand how this whole mess of a situation is gunna play out. bottom line, theyre committing suicide
  • i for one will not let a game console regulate who and where can play my games that i buy retail. i will not buy one if all this is true
  • I don't know if anyone touched on my concerns (lots of posts that I just skimmed through), but here goes: -Rentals? I rent a good amount of games to avoid dropping $60 on a sub-par game or one that I won't get my money's worth out of (ie 5 hour campaign). If it's good I will buy it and continue to support the IP, but if I can't rent a game I don't know if I'd be willing to buy as many. -The "sometimes always on" is going to alienate about 25-33% of their current customers from what I've read. If you lose around the same amount from the remaining customers because of the used game policy (which I could see), you have a lower install base and less muscle with developers. This will lead to less exclusives, less timed DLC, and so forth, eventually turning XB1 into the Wii: in the game, but not very relevant. My two cents.
  • I posted this on another site but here's my opinion that I wrote there. All Microsoft said first day was that a game will be linked to your account. If you go to a friends house you can play the game on your account using their Xbox. The game will install and play. If you leave they can’t play the game on their account without paying a fee because they don’t own the game even though it is installed on their Xbox. Ok so now everyone takes this to mean you can’t play used games because it’s linked to an account. But I think the direction they will take, and it seems likely with the sometimes required internet connection, is that you have to unlink a game from one account to register it to another. So if you unlinked the game from your account, thus needing the internet, you could then link it to your friends account. If you then went home you would have to pay to play it because now it’s linked to someone else and you no longer technically own it anymore. To play on your account again you would have to unlink it from your friends account. This stops the same game from being installed on 20 Xbox Ones from just one disc using the install and stops everyone of your friends from playing a game you bought at the same time as you. Sorry for the long post but I believe this why you need constant internet connections every so often.
  • @95 Kinect is required to be connected at all time otherwise the console will not function.
  • Some more annoying news: Xbox One will not suport current-gen gaming headsets Proprietary data port incompatible with current peripherals http://www.computerandvideogames.com/408413/xbox-one-will-not-suport-current-gen-gaming-headsets/
  • Who is buying Used Games.... ewwww get out !
  • just watched sonys PS4 reveal again, it saddens me to see them so dedicated to gamers and MS are dedicated to Entertainment.. I will was until E3 until I jump ship, but it will have to take a lot from MS to keep me on board after there antics. "15" exclusives, I will just say quality over quantity.
  • I will not spend to much time bitching about this system but being charged to play a used game and the system not being backwards compatible with 360 games is a huge issue. I would have never imagined that I would even be doing research on the PS4 but I have been.
  • Each day M$ decides not to tell us, each day I move closer to getting a PS4. I was and still happy with my 360, but the Xbox Done I'm not very happy with. The more they let rumors keep going is just worse on their part and how they can be so stupid to let that happen is beyond me. Then again, all this money they have gotten from their users must have gotten to their heads. Greedy bastards!
  • @91 Actually, PS fanboys are far more childish than a lot of 360 fanboys, and there are more of them, consider how a lot of 360 fans are mad at MS for various reasons. Sony loyalists stick by Sony no matter what they do, right or wrong. Also, until a bunch of 360 fans try to boycott a developer just because a game goes multiplat (like what PS fanboys have done), you can't say they're more childish lol Also, once again, it's funny that people are automatically going to buy a PS4, despite the fact that there's no launch line up (yet), no price, and not even a picture of the actual system. From the way these new consoles are sounding, you might be better off just getting a gaming rig. Sounds like that's where they're headed.
  • Flash forward to the sony press conference at e3. They will say ps4 has always online and bans used games. Then the microsoft press conference will denouce all these rumors. Sony will ban used games, while microsoft will charge 5 to 10 dollars more. Guys its bussiness and compeitition they aren't going to tell all the features to have sony and microsoft keep guessing what there going to do. The 360 is the best selling console this gen. More people use it for tv, movies then playing games. All game companies have not recovered from the 2008 Recession they need the money. You don't relaese how much money devs lose from used games they just want a little more back. How do you expect them to make a 10 million dollar game like red dead redemption and grand theft auto whille taking a lose on every game. Please don't decide until you've heard all of the evidence.
  • 360a, you guys give little green awards to comments that receive 20 likes. Can you guys give little red awards to comments that receive 20 dislikes?
  • So if they do decide to charge for used games then they effectively are taking control over the gaming market. Generally stores like Game, Best Buy etc. can choose what they sell used games for. Now MS is saying you need to pay this much to play this used game, even though the game may not be worth what they are asking. This is a bad idea. But then Major Nelson says they want it to work like it did for xbox 360, in which case this whole issue should be dead by now. I don't like where MS is taking this market, gaming is eventually going to die.
  • I'm going to try to keep from reading into the info until everything is 100% finalized. Initially, they said it was Always Online, then the hate came out and now they say it needs to be online at least once per 24 hours. Still weird, but not as bad. Maybe they'll change that, too. The supposed fee to play used, borrowed or rented games is strange. I like the idea of not needing the disc anymore and that even if you had to pay a fee for borrowing it, you now own the game. Something we as gamers may need to realize is that, in time, games could move to 100% digital which would eliminate used games completely. It might not happen for a really long time, but it could happen. Something like these fees will change the current used and rental market drastically. GameStop will no longer be able to charge $55 for a used game if it costs $10-$20, or whatever the cost might be, to install it. We could be looking at $30-$35 used games instead. Of course, I still wouldn't be happy to buy a $5 used game and pay another $20 to install. Not sure how the rental market would work, though. And where does the fee go? Does it go the Developers? The Publisher? Microsoft? If anything it should go to he Developers/Publishers. They're the one's losing sales when it comes to the used game market and there have been too many good studios being forced to close because of low game sales from either used sales or piracy. It's all a slippery slope when it comes to appropriate and fair methods. One side is most likely going to be upset. I get a feeling that MS did this reveal with too little or no set information. Surveys and studies before the reveal to get a feel of the market would have been best, but maybe not feasible. Maybe they just wanted to get the info out since Sony did a quasi-reveal of the PS4 and they hadn't even confirmed the existence of a new Xbox. Backtracking, conflicting stories and question dodging is too prevalent since the reveal. Run the idea of a HDD that can't be replaced by consumers and they would see the massive disapproval. Sony has my respect when it comes to HDD since they added a pull-out slot and you can easily swap the drive out. "Proprietary" is not a good word anymore. It used to mean it was built to specific standards held up by the company's quality assurance, now it means a greedy way for a company to force you to buy their product since nothing else will work with it. I'd like to see what changes between now and E3 and then between E3 and the product launch. The 500GB drive could jump to 1TB or 2TB depending on Sony's stats, the fee could disappear completely, the once per 24 hour online check could be gone. If they realize they're alienating a huge portion of their target demographic, hopefully they change some stuff around. If not, it could hurt them. But, none of us can see into the future to see how this plays out and whether it will even affect their sales and popularity.
  • So much backtracking. These assholes have been redacting their own shit for months. Dragging people like Paul Thurrott's name through the mud for stating what's basically info from an official whitepaper, and Microsoft waits a while before saying "No, that was wrong. You misread that carefully constructed and repeatedly proofread internal document." The info comes out, they finally see an outcry of negative feedback showing how wrong they were for going in that direction, then try to blame it on journalists while scrambling to fix it. All the more suspicious due to NONE of this kind of stuff being part of their reveal, like they knew it would get a chorus of booing. Critical consumer info left out so they could just give a subtle answer in post-reveal interviews hoping consumers would never find out until they paid for their console, took it home, and plugged it in.
  • @ 134 id rather the old sytem of thumbs was back, im sure you used to be able to see all the up and downs. id much rather see all the results.
  • Nickle and Dimed?! Personally feel like there should be no fee if you have XBL Gold... still trying to understand how they will keep offline only systems from playing any game they want.
  • Guys, I have no idea if this will work, but please, let's give this a try: http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/microsoft-to-listen-and-to-take-notice-of-what-their-consumers-want-from-them
  • @#140 i was JUST going to post that link. lol
  • @141 Haha, it's my petition, spread it guys!
  • oh i forgot, guys please go the site an sign it, so we can give it to M$ an we can be heard.
  • lol @142, i'm working on it!
  • Oh my god, this has to be the biggest launch F-up in the history of consoles. And there have been a few doozies.
  • idc I only buy new anyways
  • I disagree with the used game fee policy in principal, and see it being an epic fail. However, I would be more open to the idea if it was small and if I knew 100% of the fee went to the game developers, but I don't see that happening. I think it would be fair (to the Devs) if the fee was like $5 and only active for the first 2 years since release. regardless, Gamestop would have to adjust their prices to factor in this fee, otherwise there is no incentive to buy used. they make pretty significant margins now on used games. Gamefly, on the otherhand, is screwed. another thing to consider: So if this fee actually becomes reality, would one have to pay the used game fee AND EA's online pass??
  • thumbs down me if you want to. move out of mommies basement and get a job and you would have money to buy new too. if you don't like the console don't buy it. go buy a ps4 go whine on that site.
  • Lol @ people saying they would convert to PS4, I know for me it's Xbox One or nothing I would never go as low to buy a Sony console. People need to wait until E3 and stop coming up with the worst case scenarios, just chill.
  • @148 Not everyone buys new games, Especially those released for almost 6 months. It's awesome you can buy new games, Just because you not everyone does. No one said they don't like the new console, It's just a big deal if your game isn't worth anything after you buy it. PS4 has nothing in this conversation, Insulting people over the internet is just cute.
  • @149, MS will backtrack a few things, but it's too late as many have already lost the trust in MS completely. One thing they won't backtrack on is the Kinect, TV and no backwards compatibility, and for me, paying all that money and having two things I don't want, one of which my TV already does, and not being able to play my hundreds of 360 games is still a killer. Only 5% of 360 owners had an Xbox, and I wouldn't be surprised if only 5% of 360 owners buy an X-One. If they don't backtrack on the fee for pre-activated games, then many people will buy as new games that have been activated already, but returned. Will MS make sure these people don't have to pay the activation cost or will they just say "too bad, we don't believe you bought it as brand new."
  • i personally don't like being forced to use a kinect which imo was a novelty that whore off really fast. i hate being forced to install a game and then forced to also connect to the internet at least every 245hours or the console won't work? WTF is with that, i know they want to try and stop piracy and to make money on used games but in reality they are just cutting off allot of hands that feed them by allot of stupid moves that seem to really piss of the consumers. i have a funny feeling allot of one time hardcore xbox fans will be going to the ps4, i know i will be going that way if the rumors about the xbox one are correct and ive been on live since it started and will truely miss it, along with all the great live friends i have made.
  • just sold my used motorcycle. told the buyer I'd have to charge him an additional 10% witch would go to honda to cover the cost of the used sale. should of seen the look on his face.
  • O....M....F.....G.....Why can't someone from Microsoft say: we'll charge for used games or we'll won't charge DONE!
  • @154 lol one would think its that simple to say yes or no.
  • @153 thats exactly what MS would be doing, its looking a good system, such a massive shame there going to destroy it before it goes on sale
  • I have to say this is becoming a bit of a sloppy performance from Microsoft. Surely they should/could of prepared for these questions! It's just embarrassing - one Microsoft rep saying one thing and another saying something different - Farse. Get your facts straight and then give people the details, or they're going to get uninterested and look elsewhere!
  • @96 the used game market is in no way bad for the industry, in fact its the only thing thats kept it afloat at certain times in its past first, they are the single best form of marketing game companies have, a new game in a series is coming out, it looks cool so you go buy the older titles used, play them love them buy the new one day one at full price, without that people just wouldnt buy them. if it wasent for that marketing then i would never have thrown money down on half the titles i own today for 360, halo, mass effect, gears, assassins creed all series that i have bought new games yearly at times use to playing the original owned second its what keeps the retailers that sell our games going especially during times when the market is down, all game stores rely on used game sales because they dont make as much from new sales and without game stores there would have been no where to buy games that would have made it big now. its only because theres now alternatives that indie devs are doing well with (mostly because people like microsoft wont allow them on their platform) that the companies are now getting greedy and wishing to destroy the people that sold their games for years and take all their profits. without the used games market the market crash in the 80s would have killed gaming for good since at the time there was no alternative. if you want to look for a problem with the market then its not used games its the publishers, they take 80-90+ percent of the profits of the games giving very little to the dev, they charge extortionate amounts for unfinished products, they are willing to step on everyone and everything to make money, they have simply gotten too powerful now and this is all about them. its companies like EA activision, Square, Ubisoft, capcom creating a market where you need them to make games but theyre gonna take the majority of te profits because you need them then theyre going to buy you out because you couldnt make enough money since they took all the profits and take the rest of it
  • The only thing I'm super pissed about since right now it's the only that truly matters to me is the 24 hr online check. Will it be required to play? I haven't seen a strait answer yet. This is due to the fact myself and a lot of players I know are military. We take our consoles out on deployment with us to LAN, play Halo, play CoD, or kill off time with a SINGLE PLAYER game that we brought along, such as Skyrim, FF which ever, or whatever. What I don't get is why you would do this to a chunk of your fan base. Never mind the fact, while we are boots on ground we do not get an Internet connection that supports the ports or connections the xbox needs to connect to Live. So morale centers that have lines of xboxs for people to use that help them get through their time deployed are now bricks...you have just fucked the troops if this "policy" is true. Thanks MS.
  • The confusion over may of the key features gamers are asking about - online, used games etc - could be a way of covering all their bases based on what Sony decide to do. They don't want to confirm there will be a fee for used games for Sony to then turn around and do the same. Both companies would need to have the same policy; but at the moment Sony has all the power since it has announced virtually nothing.
  • ^* do the opposite, not the same..!!
  • If there wasn't going to be a charge they would of come out and said it already.
  • things go from bad to madness...http://www.shopto.net/news/42889/Microsofts-latest-trademark-is-watching-you/?utm_source=ShopToNews&utm_medium=facebook
  • @162 and thats why they havnt becuase i think they realise a lot of people wont buy there system, and as we speak back-tracking, i really want the new xbone but this is putting me off the pre-owned and rent, games, not every one is prepared to waste/afford £40 on a new shite game, and thats were a lot of gamers use rent/preowned, me personally i rented for example red dead as i wasnt sure, liked it then bought spent many hours on it
  • @163 just seen that link that is pure madness if tru there driving this machine into the ground
  • I can't believe what I'm reading on some of these comments!! How can anyone be happy paying a fee for a used game,or borrowing a game from a mate or playing it on the same console but different profiles!! its another way to get money from you and we just going to accept this! I'm deffo not buying this console, more people that buys into this the more acceptable they think it is and other console will probably do the same and then they will charge you even more to play it!! I'm doing my part and buying a PS4
  • Find it a bit pathetic that everybody who doesnt slate Microsoft and xb1 gets down-voted OT: regarding fees and always online, it seems people have got themselves all worked up before the reveal was even announced due to all the rumours and now disregard anything said or mix it up with the rumours. When will game / console devs realise gamers dont like new (it would seem) as you bring out a new console, it's not as good as the last. You release a sequel, not as good as original. You update a dashboard, not as good as original. New controlle - pretty much identical -, it's ugly. More uses for the console - imo more value for money -, consoles are for games only! It's called progress. All enjoy your Commodore 64's!
  • @167 to be honest i think it is also the lack of proper info regarding these issues that is also angering people. Is it wrong to want to know what exactly you can expect from a product you want to buy? I was so looking forward to the new Xbox unveiling but it was a let down and raised more questions than answers. I'm expecting all this to be sorted out at E3 and we get some proper answers.
  • Anyone else realise this is the end of renting games! Think about it, if you rent a game then you get home put it in your nextBox and what pay a fee to play it? Good luck.
  • Yeah, really, what are videostores going to do? Companies like Gamefly might go out of business. If not for loss of XBO rentals, for having to increase non-XBO customers' subscription costs to offset the lost XBO customers.
  • I will wait till everything is 100% confirmed, but I probably won't be getting if you do have to pay a fee to play used game in any way ( if they get away with it they will take it a step further the next time they bring out a new console ) they are just seeing how far they can push you ( like bullies ) need to make a stand now, and what next what if the same was true for blu-ray movies that they would only ever work on one player or TV. And also (if its true)about checking your internet connection every 24 hours that's BS, would you give your house key to a random stranger so they can check-up on you every day?
  • it looks like microsoft wants a cut of the used games industry [as do publishers]........... i have a serious issue with that.. its very unethical. if you buy something it should be your to do with as you please.. not so with the xbone.. you own nothing.. just the permission to use it........ ................. if you own a car and sell it to someone else, you do not give a cut to the ford or honda, now do you? .............. it just greed on their part i will ask my senator/congressmen just how legal this is.. let the legal system handle it.. sad day for consumers. proves the greed of microsoft.. i own 2 xbox 360s.........will sooner shoot myself then give microsoft one more penny... .......................................... you are also aware, when the xbones servers go silent, they will one day.. you will own a paper weight? where as the xbox 360 will be usuable as long as it still functions? ............................ i read apples vision for their tv its what microsoft is trying to shove down our throats.. they are competing with apple and google.. not sony apple at least, will change their vision, if it does not work.. microsoft just has stupid working for them.. no vision.. steal someones elses ...........................
  • The first-sale doctrine plays an important role in copyright and trademark law by limiting certain rights of a copyright or trademark owner. The doctrine enables the distribution chain of copyrighted products, library lending, gifting, video rentals and secondary markets for copyrighted works (for example, enabling individuals to sell their legally purchased books or CDs to others). In trademark law, this same doctrine enables reselling of trademarked products after the trademark holder put the products on the market. The doctrine is also referred to as the "right of first sale," "first sale rule," or "exhaustion rule." The first-sale doctrine is one of the traditional safety valves.
  • The first-sale doctrine creates a basic exception to the copyright holder's distribution right. Once the work is lawfully sold or even transferred gratuitously, the copyright owner's interest in the material object in which the copyrighted work is embodied is exhausted. The owner of the material object can then dispose of it as he sees fit. Thus, one who buys a copy of a book is entitled to resell it, rent it, give it away, or destroy it. However, the owner of the copy of the book will not be able to make new copies of the book because the first-sale doctrine does not limit copyright owner's reproduction right. The rationale of the doctrine is to prevent the copyright owner from restraining the free alienability of goods. Without the doctrine, a possessor of a copy of a copyrighted work would have to negotiate with the copyright owner every time he wished to dispose of his copy. After the initial transfer of ownership of a legal copy of a copyrighted work, the first-sale doctrine exhausts copyright holder's right to control how ownership of that copy can be disposed of. For this reason, this doctrine is also referred to as "exhaustion rule."
  • The doctrine was first recognized by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1908 (see Bobbs-Merrill Co. v. Straus) and subsequently codified in the Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 109. In the Bobbs-Merrill case, the publisher, Bobbs-Merrill, had inserted a notice in its books that any retail sale at a price under $1.00 would constitute an infringement of its copyright. The defendants, who owned Macy's department store, disregarded the notice and sold the books at a lower price without Bobbs-Merrill's consent. The Supreme Court held that the exclusive statutory right to "vend" applied only to the first sale of the copyrighted work. Section 109(a) provides: "Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106 (3), the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord." The elements of the first sale doctrine can be summarized as follows: (1) the copy was lawfully made with the authorization of the copyright owner; (2) ownership of the copy was initially transferred under the copyright owner's authority; (3) the defendant is a lawful owner of the copy in question; and (4) the defendant's use implicates the distribution right only; not the reproduction or some other right given to the copyright owner.
  • Honestly I couldn't care less about MS' policy about used games although I completely understand the outrage. I normally buy my games like 2 months after release when the price dropped considerably. I have more unplayed games sitting on my shelve than I can play in the close future, so I can wait a bit. But as said, I understand the outrage. What me worries me FAR more is the fact to have a camery in my room that always observes AND it is connected to the internet all the time. Seriously?! Sorry, no deal.
  • if microsoft says that you do not own their product and you only have permission to use it... which is what they are trying to do.. i forsee this ending up in court.. ..................... Some software and digital content publishers claim in their end-user license agreements (EULA) that their software or content is licensed, not sold, and thus the first sale doctrine does not apply to their works. These publishers have had some success in contracting around first sale doctrine through various clickwrap, shrink wrap, and other license agreements. For example, if you buy MP3 songs from Amazon.com, the MP3 files are merely licensed to you and hence you may not be able to resell those MP3 files. However, MP3 songs bought through iTunes Store may be characterized as "sales" because of Apple's language in its EULA and hence they maybe resell-able, if other requirements of first sale doctrine are met. Courts have struggled and taken dramatically different approaches to sort out when only a license was granted to the end user as compared to ownership. Most of these cases involved software-licensing agreements. In general, courts look beneath the surface of the agreements to conclude whether the agreements create licensing relationship or if they amount to, in substance, sales subject to first sale doctrine under §109(a). Thus, specifying that the agreement grants only a "license" is necessary to create the licensing relationship, but not sufficient. Other terms of the agreement should be consistent with such a licensing relationship.
  • @167 so what your saying is new is always better? which just isnt true people are getting "thumbed down"for not slating the console because so far no one has said anything constructive thats good about it... theyre doing the same as you just making accusations that gamers hate it because its new and backing them out of some blind faith to their new product and basically ignoring whats wrong here and what everyone hates, if someone can come up with a reason this is a good thing and say it in a manner which people listen to then people wont be as pissed off with them. peopel arent mixing teh alwayson thing with rumors or the used game things., MS came out at their press event and said to anyone that asked the console isnt always on BUT will need to be on every 24 hours and will need to be on every time you get a new game"... so yeah people are still pissed... in built DRM we dont like it so yeah Used game people arent mixing up because at that same press event MS came out and said you can use used games BUT there will be a fee... yeah people dont like paying twice for things like that so again people are pissed. Also Gamers, we like new... we love new things new toys... and are willing to pay a LOT of money for something new... if its better than what we have the 360 was better than the PS2 when new... people bought it, ps2 was better than the ps1 people bought that, ps1 better than anything nintendo has ever done people bought that... etc etc and so on until you reach bong on the flip side if something new isnt better for us we dont buy it... and i can go back through the generations exactly the same to the companies that failed to offer a good product and didnt succeed.. good companies on the whole that fucked up as for the last part... consoles should really be for games.. i have nothing against them having a few extras on them but the focus should really be games... the whole ONE concept is flawed, as the saying goes "jack of all trades master of none" yeah the Xbox has all this tech to join everything together into blah blah blah but the thing is we already own that tech... infact my TV remote does most of it, you can bring up a TV guide with the picture in window... yeah my remote does that, switch seamlessly between game and TV yep does that to, access the internet.. yep can do that, on demand TV oh yeah... again on my remote control
  • Simple if you buy something with your own cash its your to do what ever, you like, as above if i sell my car i dont give any to ford as its mine,... MS sort if out before this breaks and destroys your machine and you fuck everyone off... PS. The reason there not coming out is i think there back tracking on a lot of stuff, im quite sure they dont want a failed product.....
  • M$ don't backtrack for real. They make noises that sound like backtracking in order to secure pre-orders. Then after everyone runs out and picks up their shiny new release day toy, they screw you over anyway, but just word it differently. For Example 'doesn't need to be online to play' = 'Needs to be online to install. won't allow play unless installed'
  • The simplest and I feel the most obvious solution, if the games have to be installed to the hard drive, is just require the disc to be in the console. That way if you lend it to a friend they can play it and you can't while they have it, and you would be able to sell it or buy used games and they would work fine. That would make it work just like the 360, as it states in the article. I'm sure though with all the whining I've read on here that people would bitch that they have to get off their fat asses to change discs, because MS said we wouldn't have to.
  • @181 that would be fine with me, its how the majority of pc games have worked since the 80s, install it for speed then use the disc for running it and it works just fine
  • I guess no one has seen this. http://www.gamespot.com/news/sony-patents-tech-to-block-used-games-6401992
  • As I've said before, I don't know if this will have any effect on what Microsoft do but it IS worth a shot, it's worth a try at getting our selves heard! http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/microsoft-to-listen-and-to-take-notice-of-what-their-consumers-want-from-them
  • A lot of people here don't seem to understand the difference between a physical object, and a software license. I'm not defending Microsoft or attacking them here with their stance, but there IS a difference and in many cases "first sale doctrine" simply doesn't apply or could be rendered pointless. You may own a physical disc, but that doesn't entitle you do to whatever you want with the bits stored on it. You can sell the physical disc, yes, but that doesn't entitle the new owner to do stuff with those bits stored on the disc as well. A software license is granted to a person allowing them to use the software in specific ways, and these licenses are not governed by first sale doctrines because they are contracts and the software itself is not a tangible object. This is very common with software- for instance you can't legally install a copy of Windows on several computers you own either. And whether you like it or not, games fall under these as well. Granted the agreements aren't as implicit as they are when you install PC software, but it looks like Microsoft is making the process more explicit here. And technically, they have the right and ability to do that and attempt to enforce it. Should they? That's a different question entirely.
  • @181 - That's how it works now, and I'm fine with it. Unless the console's hacked or you're playing a copy downloaded from XBL, anyone playing a game has to possess the actual disc. Someone playing a used game isn't playing a dodgy copy or anything; they're playing the disc someone else bought new but got rid of. They wouldn't be playing it anyway. At least this way video game stores get to stay in business and we get to play games. For some reason I don't like the idea of having to pay Microsoft's prices for games bought via XBL.
  • @185 this is actually a matter of some debate at the moment because there are a lot of people that believe all of this top be unlawful... and infact in the EU it has been ruled to be unlawful. Im not sure if it has actually been tested in the us courts or not but in the EU it is called exhaustion of distribution which means that once you sell someone something you loose the rights to tell them what to do with it and this has been proven in court to count with software both on physical media and digital “The first sale in the EU of a copy of a computer program by the copyright holder or with his consent exhausts the right of distribution of that copy in the EU. A rightholder who has marketed a copy in the territory of a Member State of the EU thus loses the right to rely on his monopoly of exploitation in order to oppose the resale of that copy… The principle of exhaustion of the distribution right applies not only where the copyright holder markets copies of his software on a material medium (CD-ROM or DVD) but also where he distributes them by means of downloads from his website.” from the case of oricle Vs Usedsoft in the EU supreme court
  • I really hope this is all cleared up relatively soon, need to know if this is a for sure buy.
  • I find this stupid, just give the freaking yes or no and clarify it properly. This is causing huge fuss for what seems to be no reason. Be clear with your customers, or in this case its turning more and more from customer to possible customer, except my gamerscore not much is keeping me from switching platforms at the moment due to these stupid restrictions.
  • http://www.gamesradar.com/microsoft-publishers-receive-fees-used-game-retail-sales/?utm_source=fb&utm_medium=emp
  • @183 That article you posted is from January 13th.. In February Sony gave their stance on the used game issue... they understand its an important part of the industry and want to leave it as is. Now that doesn't mean they don't have the patent...
  • Straight from Major Nelson's blog post: Xbox One and used games Over the paste few days, we have been reading comments and message boards following the Xbox One announcement. There are a few questions regarding used games. I wanted to clarify and provide this official statement: The ability to trade in and resell games is important to gamers and to Xbox. Xbox One is designed to support the trade in and resale of games. Reports about our policies for trade in and resale are inaccurate and incomplete. We will disclose more information in the near future. Xbox OneBy Larry Hryb, Xbox LIVE's Major Nelson permalink: http://majornelson.com/2013/05/24/xbox-one-and-used-games-2/
  • After I buy a car from a carlot, I can loan it to my friends so they can drive it. Why doesn't the automobile industry make that same liscensing agreement? Anyone who purchases a vehicle, the car must be driven by them and them alone. If you resell, or loan the car, it must be purchased "again" for each new "user(driver)" They don't do that A. cuz its rediculous and B. they would have no way to enforce it. Thanks to the internet, they have ways to enforce it. When you think about it, if physical companies can't enfoce, it should be illegal for software companies to enforce. Now why is the software industry allowed to do it? because at some point in the early nineties we all clicked on agree to some agreement, (back when technically is was not policy, nor law, and couldn't stand up in court) then the software industry evolved to everyone had agreements, When you think about it, Microsoft pretty much invented it, and monopolized the software industry. They started to invent rules and laws for the software industry, which at the time no one cared about, but now are industry standard. Microsoft has been to court ALOT over the past 20 years they dont win them all, they lose and have to pay back millions also. The point is we don't have to stand for it, and thousands and thousands of customers can show it by taking ou r money elsewhere... Lets say, 80,000, mulltiplied by 1000(500 for new system, plus 500 in games and peripherals, and what not) That is 80,000,000 if my math is correct, and Microsoft won't want to alienate that money... Hell lets say its a quarter of that many users.. 20 million... Still point remains...
  • This might be where they are going with this. http://www.gamespot.com/news/xbox-one-preowned-plan-revealed-6408850
  • With the link I posted it looks like the fee only applies to the stores not the actual consumer.
  • Oh and to also point out, in the link I posted it also mentions Sony at the end.
  • @192 i love that, thanks for posting it... obvious PR posts always crack me up, he could have just said waffle waffle cheeseburger and it said as much as he did there
  • @191 I may be wrong because I really haven't been following PS4 news because I couldn't give a shit about it, but everything I have seen says that all sony has said is they won't block used games. That doesn't mean they won't make you pay extra to play them. Kinda sounds to me like the little bitches at sony are waiting around to see what ms does first so they can decide what to do.
  • Here's an insight as well - the ONE has a non-removable HDD and you have to install the game onto the consoles... NO you can not simply go to a friend's house with your game(disk) to playon his console. You have to lug your whole console over. No more test driving a freind's copy before deciding if you want to get your own. The hush hush on all these policies is strictly image protection and trying to keep Sony from getting an edfe. They know everything abou tthe console by now. The just don't want to let the cat out of the bag. Ride the media frenzy, and you'll have buyers getting a console simply on hype.
  • If there's a fee of more than $2 for any game of any age, before I can play a used/ rented game on the Xbox One, I simply won't be getting one. End of story.
  • Just so there's no mistakes, that slot in the front of the "xbox 1" isn't for games, its for your credit card... Fuck bill gates aka greedy bastard
  • sign this petition. http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/microsoft-to-listen-and-to-take-notice-of-what-their-consumers-want-from-them
  • There is no discusion needed and definitely no finilisation! A game is a product that you buy and then own! What MS is trying to do (is?) should be illegal! When a consumer buys a product he is the legal owner of it and can resell it as he seems fit. Seriously people! i can buy a load of secondhand things cd and dvd and more! It all functions great as how it should! MS is just trying to find a new way of bussines, a new model so they can take more of our money! I'm so disappointed with this next gen crap....seriously buying the right to play a game....i don't need to buy the right to listen to a cd I bought or a dvd or a blu ray or to drive a car or to read a book...sorry sir you need to buy a code to be able to read this book, by the way it's the same price as a new one.
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