Bush, a leader or a failure?

[XxSuicidal_RomancexX]

Whenever I ask someone about there personal views on Bush, they either have a supportive outlook, or they deeply hate them. But when I ask why they like or don't like him, no one usually answers me or they reply "because". Can someone give me there opinion and have a reason why they feel that why?

Personally I dislike him because of how he handled hurricane Katrina. I thought it was very childish and didn't help people immediately when they needed help, but that's just me.

[LordXenu]

I'm not a Bush hater, but I don't like what how he's handle a lot of what he's faced. I think Gore would have been the better choice, but certainly not Kerry. I stay away from politics as much as possible, so I'm not going to go into anything deep.

[CovertDog]

I don't talk politics. It only ends up being a flaming war, which is probably the way this thread will go. Please keep it civil people.:)

[xX MaslaN Xx]

I love how people keep taking shots at bush, he doesnt go to your job and say,
"HEY! HEY YOU! YOU SUCK! I HOPE SOMEONE GETS YOU! OH YES I DO!"

[PerpetualHeaven]

Bush is a failure why?

Because he lied about WMDs and invanded a country that did not support Al-Qaeda. Now, that led to the US being in 500 million in debt and also taking money out of the education area to support the war. Not only that but too many people died for something that was a big lie. Some are safe, some aren't alive and didn't get the chance to enjoy christmas or thanksgiving with their family.

Not only that but he doesn't respect anyones privacy. He tapped phone lines and more for a lot of muslim people who lived in America. On top of that he passed some stupid act called the Patriots Act.

What about him golfing and eating out when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans and he wasn't even over there yet to give support to the people?

Maybe it's how the poor are getting poorer and the rich continue getting on richer since he's been the leader of America?

Quite possibly his Forest Restoration Act. Anyone know what that is? Yeah, it's not about keeping forests safe it's about cutting down trees. He likes to name things funny. He likes to dress up his policies.

Maybe it's his actions that have led America to be the most hated country. For what reason? America did nothing instead Bushs judgements have effected all of America.

I'm sure there is more but I can't think of them right now. Now he wants to invade Iran. Sheesh.

This is just one mans opinion. I don't expect any of you to agree with me.

I love how people keep taking shots at bush, he doesnt go to your job and say,
"HEY! HEY YOU! YOU SUCK! I HOPE SOMEONE GETS YOU! OH YES I DO!"

Did you miss the part where our jobs don't control the future of an entire country and its people?

[Minty]

Id have thought most people would dislike Bush for the way he invaded a country for no reason. Its a fact now- youve been searching for WMD for 5 years and havent found any yet.

The way he handled Katrina was appalling. In fact Im going to say the way hes still handling Katrina. New Orleans isnt sorted by any means, and yet as far as i can tell, minimal ammounts are getting done.

He is also a total muppet that makes the world mock America constantly.

[Webb]

I don't talk politics. It only ends up being a flaming war, which is probably the way this thread will go. Please keep it civil people.:)

Amen to that. The slightest bit flamy and I'm locking it down ;)

[Fonkey Monkey]

I hate G. Bush. Name 5 good things he's done in his 7 years. Yea have fun.

[Xterm1n8or]

If you ask me he is a complete joke just like our prime minister tony blair. Now i don't know much about politics and so i won't pretend i do but what these people supposedly ' running our countrys' are doing is absolutely despicable. I mean take the war in iraq for example, yes Saddam was an evil man, but was iraq such an unstable country as it is now without him? Did as many people die with him in charge? I know these are rather odd views but stay with me here... They find no evidence of wmd yet they go and send their troops into battle to die, and kill innocent civilians, while they sit at 10 downing street and the whitehouse having a cup of tea? This world is a complete joke when a 17 year old boy (me) can see that the 'rulers' of our countries are making such a mess but they can't! Does anyone agree that in making the decision to invade iraq and kill innocent civilians and create massive insurgencies, Bush and Blair are no better, if not worse than Saddam himself? I am happy that saddam was removed but why did they have to remove him with a massive war? Imagine if YOU were an iraqi - what would YOU think? In my opinion, the bottom line is that most of the political leaders in this world are either totally blind to their decisions, just plain thick, or ruthless enough to kill thousands of people at the nod of the head. But thats just my opinion, and i mean no disrespect to people who think otherwise. I hope this view isn't unneccessarily 'flamy' we're all entitled to an opinion right?

[xX MaslaN Xx]

Did you miss the part where our jobs don't control the future of an entire country and its people?
chill man Im just being a post whore just like everone else on this ste ;)

[Zef]

Id have thought most people would dislike Bush for the way he invaded a country for no reason. Its a fact now- youve been searching for WMD for 5 years and havent found any yet.

I thought they were going after "the terrorist killers", the ones that didn't actually live in Iraq.

I don't hate Bush, I just think he is an idiot.

http://www.google.com/videoplay\?docid=http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-6737873101935536384&q=speechalist

Answers it all.

[I N64 I MaRiO]

oh man, love these topics where un-americans talk mad shit about america's problems :rolleyes:

but i mean.. hey! dudes the president....serving his second term...whats so wrong with him?
sure, he's bad at war... and at life..and he's old... but i mean shit..what would you do in a war? call all troops out? and have the bad guys think we're a bunch of pussysnappers? Nah-ah

[Minty]

oh man, love these topics where un-americans talk mad shit about america's problems :rolleyes:

Love these threads where kids think they know it all :rolleyes:

Not being funny- but who have you got to compare him to?? You wouldnt of paid any attention to politics (assuming you do now) when Clinton was in the Oval Office.

And its not just AMerica's problesm- what America does affects every person on the planet. SO may not live in America, but read and hear about American politics every day

[I N64 I MaRiO]

Love these threads where kids think they know it all :rolleyes:

Not being funny- but who have you got to compare him to?? You wouldnt of paid any attention to politics (assuming you do now) when Clinton was in the Oval Office.

And its not just AMerica's problesm- what America does affects every person on the planet. SO may not live in America, but read and hear about American politics every day
y'know thats the whole point, yepsir... only 15 and i still think it's weird when a bunch of canadians and brits know about america...i mean ya they know, but dont you think its weird that I dont even know about damn canada president? and in spite of that i hear the brits can't get enough tony blair;) ( no really )

[Webb]

Brits can't get enough of Tony Blair? lol He's full of empty promises, what is there not to love? :rolleyes: Check the facts before you make such claims man!

[xX MaslaN Xx]

I love Bush :D he sounds drunk all day everyday lol

[Minty]

Read the sarcasm Webby lol.

And the reason not that many people know about the Canada President is cos he doesnt exist- they have a Prime Minister as well.

So check your facts :p. Your only a border away from them ;)

[I N64 I MaRiO]

zLoLz,
webb meet sarcasm:)

and i know, minty , they have a prime minister, i guess i just lost my mind with president :O happens happnens i know you're talking to MaRiO here though...\

so who's top dog that does shit for canada?

but really...what's in canada? hockey? yes..i like hockey but what else? weed? yes, but i dont smoke it... a PS that i know? nopesir :(

[Fonkey Monkey]

I have a higher IQ than the president. That alone is just mesmerizing that he's the president

[CovertDog]

Read the sarcasm Webby lol.

And the reason not that many people know about the Canada President is cos he doesnt exist- they have a Prime Minister as well.

So check your facts :p. Your only a border away from them ;)

Thank you.

[Webb]

Mario can't do sarcastic, you need to understand what it is before you use it :biglaugh

[I N64 I MaRiO]

:D oki doki
there goes the old webb charm :rolleyes:
so webbster how about the soccer over there?:nana ( joking )

ya know... i think i could be a good president though...i mean i have everything George bush has....except im not old...and i dont think i'd be bad at war...:Bounce: and i don't make a complete ass of myself on tv... i just make a complete ass of myself over the internet;)

[Dave]

one of the reasons i dislike bush and his cronies is becuase he igonres the problem of globol warming

[PerpetualHeaven]

y'know thats the whole point, yepsir... only 15 and i still think it's weird when a bunch of canadians and brits know about america...i mean ya they know, but dont you think its weird that I dont even know about damn canada president? and in spite of that i hear the brits can't get enough tony blair;) ( no really )

And this is what happens when America removes funds from their education system and doesn't build a proper one. In Canada, we're fully educated about America and all countries. We aren't just all about Canada. We study all countries, all cultures, and everything. I could name so many states and I don't think many American students could name a single province.

But regardless, this isn't the topic. No one is hating on America but Minty said what america does affects everyone and that's the truth. They're the worlds superpower. The person that was elected is not handling any situation right. Not once have I seen him do something good or pass a good bill.


but really...what's in canada? hockey? yes..i like hockey but what else? weed? yes, but i dont smoke it... a PS that i know? nopesir

That's like saying what's in America? Think before you type. And Stephen Harper is the current Prime Minister. Apparent friends with George Bush even though he denies some of the close relations they've had with one another.

[Fonkey Monkey]

In 6th grade we learned all of the provinces....Now I dont remember all of them but i remmeber most of them , theres 13 of 'em, i know like 8 or 9 of the top of my head.
In 3rd grade we learned a song kinda thing that has all 50 states in alphabetical order, and i still know it surprisingly. We're not all dumb;)

[CovertDog]

I have to share this. It is old but funny. It's done in good humour, so please take it that way.

http://home.comcast.net/~wwwstephen/americans/

I think Rick Mercer is so funny.:p

[xfrancox]

These threads NEVER go the way they should. Especially when you have children who don't quite understand very much about the subject throwing their worthless two cents in.

[Minty]

These threads NEVER go the way they should. Especially when you have children who don't quite understand very much about the subject throwing their worthless two cents in.

Yeah its a shame, as their are a lot of people on here that actually know what their talking about and can back their views up, even tho there are many different views.

Would actually be good to have that debate one day, altho I guess it will have to be done behind closed doors.

[oVo Pandora oVo]

First I'd like to say you need a zipped mouth smilie :p and second already learned my lesson when comes to politics lol so I'll say I agree with Minty :p

[Eternal Prince]

Polititions make me mad...

[snafegeeza]

I have exactly the opposite views to most of you.

I think Bush is a top bloke with enough balls to make difficult decisions and see them through. But I aint going into this anymore as im not prepared to justify my opinions over and over to someone who disagrees with me.

Each to their own opinion.

[Minty]

already learned my lesson when comes to politics lol so I'll say I agree with Minty :p

If only Tony Blair and George W would learn that lesson as well....

[I N64 I MaRiO]

That's like saying what's in America? Think before you type. And Stephen Harper is the current Prime Minister. Apparent friends with George Bush even though he denies some of the close relations they've had with one another.
theres alot of shit in america...if you studied it then you shall know? right?


and i think all that childeren stuff with no views was directed towards me? eh? i dunno...all i know is politicians all lie so they can get in office....:) ya! they full of crap :)

edit: i wanna exclude ralph nater;)

[L3giOn]

You guys all bitch about Bush being the President, but just wait until Hilary is in office. Then you'll see how good you actually had it. I dread the day that bitch gets elected. (hopefully it doesn't happen, but it's not looking good) I seriously can't think of anything worse for this country than a female version of Slick Willie.

[Tron]

hillary is actually a borg.
and she has a penis.

either way we would be doomed if she stepped into the office... id rather have that Obama guy than her.

[L3giOn]

hillary is actually a borg.
and she has a penis.

either way we would be doomed if she stepped into the office... id rather have that Obama guy than her.

I like Mitt Romney so far. The only thing he has going against him imo is the fact that he's a Mormon. No offense to any Mormons here, but that's just not my cup of tea. Other than that, I agree with all of his views so far. (anti abortion, anti gay rights, pro firearms, doesn't believe in all the 'global warming' garbage, etc... :))

[PerpetualHeaven]

In 6th grade we learned all of the provinces....Now I dont remember all of them but i remmeber most of them , theres 13 of 'em, i know like 8 or 9 of the top of my head.
In 3rd grade we learned a song kinda thing that has all 50 states in alphabetical order, and i still know it surprisingly. We're not all dumb;)

Actually there aren't 13 provinces. There are 10 provinces and 3 territories.

theres alot of shit in america...if you studied it then you shall know? right?


and i think all that childeren stuff with no views was directed towards me? eh? i dunno...all i know is politicians all lie so they can get in office....:) ya! they full of crap :)

edit: i wanna exclude ralph nater;)

I said that's like me saying what's in America! There is a lot in America obviously, but there's just as much in Canada.

I like Mitt Romney so far. The only thing he has going against him imo is the fact that he's a Mormon. No offense to any Mormons here, but that's just not my cup of tea. Other than that, I agree with all of his views so far. (anti abortion, anti gay rights, pro firearms, doesn't believe in all the 'global warming' garbage, etc... :))

I would want someone who believes in all the global warming stuff. But I won't be alive when it all goes down.

[snafegeeza]

Yep, Hilary will be bad news for you guys.

You will be begging to have back bush, just as britain will be begging to have Blair back when fat, tax grabbing Gordon gets in.

[Zef]

There could be Civil War!

Ms.Clinton doesn't like games, that is bad. You might as well chop Jack Thomson's penis off and throw him into office instead.

[oVo Pandora oVo]

Well I think we are ready to have a woman as President even a minority. Personally all I care about is someone who speaks more truths and not the typical BS answers they think we want to hear, Regardless of who it is Rep or Dem.

[L3giOn]

There could be Civil War!

Ms.Clinton doesn't like games, that is bad. You might as well chop Jack Thomson's penis off and throw him into office instead.

Who said Hilary doesn't have a penis? :p

[L3giOn]

Well I think we are ready to have a woman as President even a minority. Personally all I care about is someone who speaks more truths and not the typical BS answers they think we want to hear, Regardless of who it is Rep or Dem.

I agree with you that our country is ready for a woman President, but I don't think other countries are ready for us to have one. A lot of other countries don't respect women in the same aspect that we do and will see it as a weakness.

[Zef]

Maybe she has Jack's?

Maybe they can add in a spelling bee before electing new Presidents, weed out the bad apples. As for Mr.Brown being the next PM, as long as he doesn't become the next Bush-Lapdog I don't mind.

[oVo Pandora oVo]

I agree with you that our country is ready for a woman President, but I don't think other countries are ready for us to have one. A lot of other countries don't respect women in the same aspect that we do and will see it as a weakness.

You are right, but there are alot of women Presidents, Prime Ministers whatever else you call them around the world. Look at Margret Thatcher Probably spelt that wrong but she was way ahead of her time :) Really countries that treat women like slaves are the ones that personally need to see more women leaders around the world for them to come out of the stone age.

[PerpetualHeaven]

I don't think Hilary would be THAT bad. But we'll have to see if the people elect her as president. I mean it's extremely difficult to top Bush. Let's just hope her speechs are a lot better.

Either way, I hope who ever is in presidency does a better job then Bush did. Almost all historians label Bush as the worst president ever and a complete failure.

[Minty]

I think that the world will be a lot more excepting as Hilary as President than most Americans would be tbh.

Clinton was one of the most popular global leaders in recent years, and I think his wife may be able to beat that.

And like has been said, who evers in next can pretty much get away with murder, after George W did.

[snafegeeza]

You are right, but there are alot of women Presidents, Prime Ministers whatever else you call them around the world. Look at Margret Thatcher Probably spelt that wrong but she was way ahead of her time :) Really countries that treat women like slaves are the ones that personally need to see more women leaders around the world for them to come out of the stone age.

Margret Thatcher is not a good advertisment for women presidents, possibly the worst leader this country ever had, she crippled the economy and left the working classes to rot. Living under the Thatcher era was this country's darkest hour and we are still paying for and putting right all the mistakes she made. My family's life was hell living under Thatcher rule, so was millions of other working class family's.

She is a perfect example of why women should not become leaders of nations.

[oVo Pandora oVo]

Margret Thatcher is not a good advertisment for women presidents, possibly the worst leader this country ever had, she crippled the economy and left the working classes to rot. Living under the Thatcher era was this country's darkest hour and we are still paying for and putting right all the mistakes she made. My family's life was hell living under Thatcher rule, so was millions of other working class family's.

She is a perfect example of why women should not become leaders of nations.

I wasn't implying she was a great leader I was just referring to the time she was elected was before woman were even widely accepted into Political offices in this country that was all I meant by that

[PerpetualHeaven]

Margret Thatcher is not a good advertisment for women presidents, possibly the worst leader this country ever had, she crippled the economy and left the working classes to rot. Living under the Thatcher era was this country's darkest hour and we are still paying for and putting right all the mistakes she made. My family's life was hell living under Thatcher rule, so was millions of other working class family's.

She is a perfect example of why women should not become leaders of nations.

Using her to generalize all possible female leaders is not right. That's like using Bush to generalize all possible men leaders and saying that Men should not be leaders because of Bush.

[I N64 I MaRiO]

she's got the womens vote too....thats like almost half of USA :O
and plus i'd vote for her ;) its like 2 birds with one stone...we get bill back and hilary...but i think bill is going to make all of her decisions :rolleyes: she's just there for publicity...i think its a scandal in the making :eek: but enough of what i think...this thread is supposed to be about bush...

[Dave]

she's got the womens vote too....thats like almost half of USA :O
and plus i'd vote for her ;) its like 2 birds with one stone...we get bill back and hilary...but i think bill is going to make all of her decisions :rolleyes: she's just there for publicity...i think its a scandal in the making :eek: but enough of what i think...this thread is supposed to be about bush...
of course its a scandal...not
i think its time we have a woman president, they arent so eager to war as men are, well most of them

[I N64 I MaRiO]

i say its going pretty good... or it was...till mario got in here :)
yo dave..i love how you always try to play off what i say...and DON't even give me a fairly good reason why it wouldnt be a scandal...
dumbass;) ..and i love how you still do that "sike" bullshit :rolleyes:

so ya know that G bush eats kittens?

343

eh, he's doing it for america:Bounce:

[zOwnerofallz]

I know I'm not American, but I play just as close attention to your politics as I do here in Canada.

This is from a paper I wrote a while ago:

I think that Bush was right to remove Saddam Hussein, but he should of done it with a greater show of force (advisers said he needed 400,000 allied troops for the invasion, he sent 240,000). Also, he should not have used fake WMD intel as an excuse. With more troops, the looting and chaos that followed would have been severely decreased. With the violence being so well controlled and stopped by American forces, the Iraqi people may have stopped a lot earlier on.
Another thing about Bush I don't like is how he has handled Iran and North Korea. Iran right now will become a major problem because they know that war with them would be extremely unpopular with the American people. Also, the U.S. military is stretched very thin. Thus, they are not afraid of the U.S. Bush should have/could still move more ships (into the Persian Gulf) and troops to areas near Iran, such as the Afghan/Iran border and Kuwait. This could deter their feeling of immunity as long as the U.S. is at war in Iraq. If the Iranian halted their nuclear program, a lot of world tensions would disappear. Also, this could stop Israel from being forced to attack Iran at the threat of a nuclear armed regime (The Israelis fly test flights every week from Israel to remote areas and back, these areas being same distance as Israel to Iran, suggesting as BBC once reported, Israel plans to use tactical nuclear weapons on Iran, as they are free to do not being in the NPT). That would involve several countries including the U.S., possibly the start of World War 3. But, as I said, a show of force could really deter future regimes in not just Iran, but the rest of the Middle East.

[Dave]

i say its going pretty good... or it was...till mario got in here :)
yo dave..i love how you always try to play off what i say...and DON't even give me a fairly good reason why it wouldnt be a scandal...
dumbass;) ..and i love how you still do that "sike" bullshit :rolleyes:

so ya know that G bush eats kittens?

343

eh, he's doing it for america:Bounce:
what proof do u have for it to be a scandal?

[I N64 I MaRiO]

what proof do u have for it to be a scandal?
1st women president, accompanined by bill clinton...
i can smell teh ronald reagan all over again...even though i was not alive during the times...

what proof do you have that it wouldnt be?

p.s. anyone who knows...is there a better way to get pics showing without attachments... that picture website?

[Dave]

1st women president, accompanined by bill clinton...
i can smell teh ronald reagan all over again...even though i was not alive during the times...

what proof do you have that it wouldnt be?

p.s. anyone who knows...is there a better way to get pics showing without attachments... that picture website?
soo just cause shes a woman means its gonna be a scandal..?

[Mingledon]

p.s. anyone who knows...is there a better way to get pics showing without attachments... that picture website?

You mean www.imageshack.us (http://www.imageshack.us)?

In any case, I don't really like Bush, because here I am living in this country. I spent a good chunk of my life in New York, living in Brooklyn. Then, the Osama drops the bomb right in the heart of the state, less then 15 minutes away from my house, and Bush expects us NYkers to like him. Not me. I don't like him because he didn't do anything for us residents near the GZ. There was fucking papers in my yard from the explosion. Fucking papers!

[snafegeeza]

I wasn't implying she was a great leader I was just referring to the time she was elected was before woman were even widely accepted into Political offices in this country that was all I meant by that

Thats fair enough, but in your first post you did say she was ahead of the times, which if you lived in this country whilst she was PM you would know that this is not the case.

@perpetual, Im not generalising women, Maggie Thatcher was given as an example and I was merely pointing out what a waste of space she was.

[zebatov]

Bush is a failure why?

Because he lied about WMDs...

OMG! People! He didn't lie about these things! The US stupidly sent the weapons themselves! Here's what I read: (I already knew, I found this for you guys)

Iraq did not use biological weapons in the war, but built up its capability during that time.
On 25 May, 2004, The U.S. Senate Banking Committee released a report in which it was stated that pathogenic (meaning disease producing), toxigenic (meaning poisonous) and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq, pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. It added: "These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction." The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Anthrax Bacillus) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding that "these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program."
A report by Berlin's die tageszeitung in 2002 reported that Iraq's 11,000-page report to the UN Security Council listed 150 foreign companies that supported Saddam Hussein's WMD program. Twenty-four U.S. firms were involved in exporting arms and materials to Baghdad Donald Riegle, Chairman of the Senate committee that made the report, said, "UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs." He added, "the executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record."
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 agents "with biological warfare significance," including West Nile Virus, according to Riegle's investigators.

I believe this had to do with the "Imposed war".

He didn't "lie" about having them. He was searching for them because of the above reasons and chose to disbelieve they didn't have any.

I personally have no reason not to like him, because most of his (crappy) decisions do not affect me directly. He's actually entertaining to listen to at his speeches because a lot of the time he gets off track and it ends up not making a lot of sense! :)

y'know thats the whole point, yepsir... only 15 and i still think it's weird when a bunch of canadians and brits know about america...i mean ya they know, but dont you think its weird that I dont even know about damn canada president? and in spite of that i hear the brits can't get enough tony blair;) ( no really )

Hey "Bush", Canada has a Prime Minister like Britain does, not a President.

[Webb]

Zebatov - The debate is about Bush being a failure or a success. Don't be a dick and slam someone else home country in an off topic slur.

[XxSuicidal_RomancexX]

I agree. Making fun of another persons countries not right. Please try and keep it civil, at least a little bit :) .

[zebatov]

To Webb:

Sorry dude. I get pissy when people don't even acknowledge the fact that we don't have a President. Anyways. I hope people took the time to read my post, because I did state my views.

[Monsterbox]

Failure.

Didn't make good on any of his promises. Didn't follow through on anything he started. He has accomplished nothing in the past 7 years. Truth be told he's done more damage than anything else. The United States has become the laughing stock of the world. A country that can't even elect it's own leaders properly. Look at the way Ohio just rolled over without even bothering a recount and risk being another Florida. While all politics is shady dealings, this time around it's seemed to be worse than ever before. I think one of the biggest problems of the last election is that we had no good candidates. We weren't even voting for the lesser of evils in any circumstance, they were all equally lousy. At least in 2008 we can hope to see some actual choices. Deciding between Bush and Kerry wasn't so much a choice as a forced attrition for the previous election.

The funny thing is, I was watching Donnie Darko the other day and there's a segment where the father is sleeping in the living room and Bush Sr. is on the TV. His public speaking abilities in the clip were just as bad as W's. So I went back to archives on the web. The apple certainly didn't fall far from the tree in the speech department. Oh well, 1 more year...

[Tron]

Hey, to anyone of our German members, hows the whole woman leader thing going for you? would be nice to have your input...

[Minty]

I personally have no reason not to like him, because most of his (crappy) decisions do not affect me directly. He's actually entertaining to listen to at his speeches because a lot of the time he gets off track and it ends up not making a lot of sense! :)

If you live on planet Earth, then his decisions do afect you. As the leader of the most powerful contry in the world, what America does everyone else follows.

If I want something funny to watch, I watch a comedy. I would hope that the next President is elected because they understand politics, not because their a goof that is funny to laugh at.

[zebatov]

If you live on planet Earth, then his decisions do afect you. As the leader of the most powerful contry in the world, what America does everyone else follows.

If I want something funny to watch, I watch a comedy. I would hope that the next President is elected because they understand politics, not because their a goof that is funny to laugh at.

Hahahaha. If only you knew me, my friend. :)

And we don't have private health-care governed by him. Our schools aren't funded by him. Lots of his decisions do not affect me.

[XxSuicidal_RomancexX]

If you live on planet Earth, then his decisions do afect you. As the leader of the most powerful contry in the world, what America does everyone else follows.

If I want something funny to watch, I watch a comedy. I would hope that the next President is elected because they understand politics, not because their a goof that is funny to laugh at.

I agree. America is one of the most powerful countires in the world along with Biritan. What the President or Prime minister does really does effects not only there country, but the rest of the world. So having a leader who has benificial knowledge instead of a clown to laugh at is something we not only want but need to have.

[Minty]

And we don't have private health-care governed by him. Our schools aren't funded by him. Lots of his decisions do not affect me.

Well the UK's isnt funded by him either. Yet approx £5 billion was removed from the health educations budget to help fund this training war in Iraq. Same for our Eductaion budget. SO to say yours isnt affected by him is a mistake.

[PerpetualHeaven]

OMG! People! He didn't lie about these things! The US stupidly sent the weapons themselves! Here's what I read: (I already knew, I found this for you guys)

Iraq did not use biological weapons in the war, but built up its capability during that time.
On 25 May, 2004, The U.S. Senate Banking Committee released a report in which it was stated that pathogenic (meaning disease producing), toxigenic (meaning poisonous) and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq, pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. It added: "These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction." The report then detailed 70 shipments (including Anthrax Bacillus) from the United States to Iraqi government agencies over three years, concluding that "these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the UN inspectors found and recovered from the Iraqi biological warfare program."
A report by Berlin's die tageszeitung in 2002 reported that Iraq's 11,000-page report to the UN Security Council listed 150 foreign companies that supported Saddam Hussein's WMD program. Twenty-four U.S. firms were involved in exporting arms and materials to Baghdad Donald Riegle, Chairman of the Senate committee that made the report, said, "UN inspectors had identified many United States manufactured items that had been exported from the United States to Iraq under licenses issued by the Department of Commerce, and [established] that these items were used to further Iraq's chemical and nuclear weapons development and its missile delivery system development programs." He added, "the executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think that is a devastating record."
The U.S. Centers for Disease Control sent Iraq 14 agents "with biological warfare significance," including West Nile Virus, according to Riegle's investigators.

I believe this had to do with the "Imposed war".

He didn't "lie" about having them. He was searching for them because of the above reasons and chose to disbelieve they didn't have any.

I personally have no reason not to like him, because most of his (crappy) decisions do not affect me directly. He's actually entertaining to listen to at his speeches because a lot of the time he gets off track and it ends up not making a lot of sense! :)



Hey "Bush", Canada has a Prime Minister like Britain does, not a President.

From what i've read and heard their only proof was empty metal casings which they believe was going to be used for WMDs which America sent to them previously. There were no WMDs. Nothing that concerned explosives. Just empty metal casings. Therefore lies. Oh and that they invaded iraq because they were affiliated with Al-Qaeda. Another lie.

Also, I would like you to know that the Patriots act affects canada in ways too.

[zebatov]

Well the UK's isnt funded by him either. Yet approx £5 billion was removed from the health educations budget to help fund this training war in Iraq. Same for our Eductaion budget. SO to say yours isnt affected by him is a mistake.

Tony Blair and him are better friends than Steven Harper and him. Jean Cretien, when in power, actually called him an idiot. So it is fair to say that yes, as unfortunate for you as it is, it is likely that you will become more affected by him than us. We are a peace-keeping country. Your PM is all for the war.

From what i've read and heard their only proof was empty metal casings which they believe was going to be used for WMDs which America sent to them previously. There were no WMDs. Nothing that concerned explosives. Just empty metal casings. Therefore lies. Oh and that they invaded iraq because they were affiliated with Al-Qaeda. Another lie.

Also, I would like you to know that the Patriots act affects canada in ways too.

Well they sent them WMDs. That's why. It wasn't a lie. And I don't know anything of this Al-Qaeda.

[Minty]

Tony Blair and him are better friends than Steven Harper and him. Jean Cretien, when in power, actually called him an idiot. So it is fair to say that yes, as unfortunate for you as it is, it is likely that you will become more affected by him than us. We are a peace-keeping country. Your PM is all for the war.

No offence to Canada, but your not peace keeping, your military just isnt wel trained or equipped, hence why very few Canadian troops have gone to Iraq. And while we are more affected, your missing the point that whos elected President affects EVERY person in the world.

Well they sent them WMDs. That's why. It wasn't a lie. And I don't know anything of this Al-Qaeda.

Dear God. Do some research before you try making arguements.

[zebatov]

No offence to Canada, but your not peace keeping, your military just isnt wel trained or equipped, hence why very few Canadian troops have gone to Iraq. And while we are more affected, your missing the point that whos elected President affects EVERY person in the world.

Dear God. Do some research before you try making arguements.

I did (For you guys). Read my huge first post. It explains the WMD thing. Lots of people know about it and remember it. Just because you don't doesn't mean it's not true. We have a very well trained military. Better than the Americans. We have the Pathfinders, which I guess could be compared to the SEALs. But the SEALs are in a little bit of a lower league. We are one of the only countries that still use them. The reason I say this is because the Americans never have time to train. What do you think we do when we're not off defending at war? I do agree with the "well-equipped" statement, though. Very few troops have gone because we aren't there to fight. We're there to clean up and protect. Not attack.

[Monsterbox]

Better than the Americans. We have the Pathfinders, which I guess could be compared to the SEALs. But the SEALs are in a little bit of a lower league.
You're kidding right?

Actually, it's the Rangers for Army and the SEALS for the Navy that are amongst the most elite of the military in the US, and even they don't compare to SAS. So, if you want the best fighting force in the world it would have to be British SAS. Those guys are downright scary.

[zebatov]

You're kidding right?

Actually, it's the Rangers for Army and the SEALS for the Navy that are amongst the most elite of the military in the US, and even they don't compare to SAS. So, if you want the best fighting force in the world it would have to be British SAS. Those guys are downright scary.

Naw. But that's what the Canadian Pathfinders were compared to (SAS) as far as my friend (whos brother was in them) said. He said that if you don't pass your survival tests in the woods on time or at all, they'll just break your arm, or take a hammer and nail and knock your teeth out until you get it right. That's only what I heard from him, though.

[Minty]

Youve got to be kidding me? The trailfinders arent anything special at all. Their boy scouts with guns compared to the SAS.

The SAS an SBS are the best forces in the world. This is foolwed up by Rangers and SEALs from the USA- but they arent as advanced. Thats just simple fact.

Nobody is compared to the SAS. There isnt a comparison.

And on the whole WMD- Bush's Administration have basically admitted they were wrong on the war, and that they never found WMD.

[zebatov]

Youve got to be kidding me? The trailfinders arent anything special at all. Their boy scouts with guns compared to the SAS.

The SAS an SBS are the best forces in the world. This is foolwed up by Rangers and SEALs from the USA- but they arent as advanced. Thats just simple fact.

Nobody is compared to the SAS. There isnt a comparison.

And on the whole WMD- Bush's Administration have basically admitted they were wrong on the war, and that they never found WMD.

Well I did research on them in highschool as well and know that they are. No one wants to admit that a Canadian force is just as good or better, though.

I also just did some reading and came up with some, lol.

Israeli
SAS
Spetsnaz
Australian SAS
Marines- RECON
Swiss Guard
US SpecFor
RoK Commandos
Gurkhas
Australian Special Forces

And this: "The UK, Germany, France, Isreal, Australians, Canadians and Kiwis are all better trained than the US."

Just going through random pages. Anyways. Whether they actually said it was a mistake or not, fact is, they sent out WMDs, which is why I thought I'd post this here so that people may see it and hesitate before saying "Bush is gay because he's stupid", or something. Man! I was actually trying to defend him a bit!

[Minty]

Everyone knows America sold them weapons. Donald Rumsfold was the man behind it 20 years ago, when he said that he could seeSaddam Hussein becoming a great allie of the United States.

Guess that one didnt quite pan out.

[zebatov]

Everyone knows America sold them weapons. Donald Rumsfold was the man behind it 20 years ago, when he said that he could seeSaddam Hussein becoming a great allie of the United States.

Guess that one didnt quite pan out.

Was it really 20 years ago? Wow. That paragraph I copied said 1995, and it said something the Iran/Iraq war, and America supporting Iraqs side in it. But I guess that couldv'e just been when those papers were written by the councils.

[Monsterbox]

Weapons and aid were given to Iraq during their war with Iran. The whys of it will always remain a mystery to me (despite what the button-polishing politicians feed the public) but such was the case. Does it look like a bad idea now? Yep. Governments, considering they are a body of people, can make mistakes just like anyone else can. As far as the whole lying about WMDs thing. I don't think they lied, I think they were just flat-out wrong. They believed the means was justified. They were wrong. Does being wrong mean what happened is ok? Not a chance. But there's a huge difference between willful deception and making incorrect assumptions.

The US government had given the weapons in the past. As such, the US government believed they had such weapons. Doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to me. Should the entire situation have been handled differently? Without a doubt. But it wasn't. Yet another mistake on the part of the US. And people wonder why the world is laughing at us these days...

[I N64 I MaRiO]

Hey "Bush", Canada has a Prime Minister like Britain does, not a President.
how am i supposed to know...canda is so....not my country;) , and if we ( america ) affect the whole world ( earth ) then why do they ( canada ) not have presidents :confused: , but PM's ( pussymonsters haha...joking.. prime ministers ) * retorical question...don't answer zebatov;) ( NOT EVEN IN PM"S!!!! )*

originally posted by zebatov, sorry donno how ta do that thing...
Naw. But that's what the Canadian Pathfinders were compared to (SAS) as far as my friend (whos brother was in them) said. He said that if you don't pass your survival tests in the woods on time or at all, they'll just break your arm, or take a hammer and nail and knock your teeth out until you get it right. That's only what I heard from him, though.
are you sure that wasn't him making up some shit story, to sound tough? or are you seriously sure that they actually did that?

[CovertDog]

I'am pretty sure it's BS Mario. There is no-way stuff like that would be tolerated in any armed forces. Not to take away from our armed forces (they are a badass as any other), but they are more like to make them chug a couple of beer for failing and then make them do it again.:drunk :p

Let's not forgot people, Canada does have the second largest fighting force in Afghanistan and our men and women are dying in support of the Americans and the Afghan people. Support the Troops, if not the war.

[Tron]

i hate to do it but... i believe Zebatoz is speaking some truth...i have heard that the SAS and other elite forces will break the arms of their men for training purposes... although i haven't heard of them doing it for punishment...some of it can be done in interrogation training and survival training as well as pain tolerance exercises... these forces have to be able to work and perform under extreme circumstances, up to and including broken bones.

elite forces typically do not have to report to civil rights authorities because they operate under a shroud of secrecy...

also...my best friend and one of my groomsmen does com for spec forces in the army, and as he put it, "if someone says they are in special forces, they aren't or won't be for long, the guys that are never mention it."

[Monsterbox]

i hate to do it but... i believe Zebatoz is speaking some truth...i have heard that the SAS and other elite forces will break the arms of their men for training purposes... although i haven't heard of them doing it for punishment...some of it can be done in interrogation training and survival training as well as pain tolerance exercises... these forces have to be able to work and perform under extreme circumstances, up to and including broken bones.
Mostly those sorts of things would be simulated. However, considering the extremes of the training, it wouldn't surprise me at all if those sorts of things happened during the course. However, I don't think any military outfit would do it on purpose. They want their men as fit and healthy as possible as much as possible. Purposely disabling one of your own for the purpose of training "under pressure" doesn't seem like a very wise decision. Especially when most of the elite squads are composed of so few people to begin with. However, if it happens during training I'm sure they treat it as routine and expect them to work through it.

also...my best friend and one of my groomsmen does com for spec forces in the army, and as he put it, "if someone says they are in special forces, they aren't or won't be for long, the guys that are never mention it."
All of my friends are former special forces servicemen (and women). They talk about it now, but there's no mention while people are active members. Though it's nice to know when you're going out and about that the people who have your back in case of trouble are some of the most highly trained people in the world. (Two of them are former Rangers and one was a SEAL.) And they don't talk much about what they did, mostly just stories of training camp and places they visited. One of the Rangers talks about the SAS guys he trained along side with reverence. And that's saying quite a lot coming from this guy. (He also happens to be my "military advisor" for the short stories I write. So he gets all my wierd questions like, "Could a guy use a Louisville Slugger to hit a grenade from street level through a second floor window?")

[Tron]

i dont see how you can simulate the pain of a broken arm... either way neither of us know for sure what they do.

[Minty]

Couple of guys I work with are ex SAS. They dont tell you, and they dont need to tell you. You just know.

And they wouldnt go as far as to injure their men. Sure, theyll torture them a bit and msack them round - but if you break a bone then its never as strong as it was originally, no matter how much training you put on it. They want their men in th ebest possible shape. Yes broken bones will happen in training, but not through deliberate attacks.

[Darth Odan]

Well, this is a touchy subject, but I will say my opinion, and hope that it is treated with respect [not to offend any of you, but past experiences dictate this...].

Well, Bush is our commander-in-chief. So, by default that makes him a leader. Now, if you meant that Bush was a good leader or a bad one, that depends.

I believe that Bush has his strong points and his weak points. His cabinet is filled with people that aren't suited for the job. No one could have imagined 9/11, but, there was evidence indicating this. In the hierarchy of the FBI, the evidence was made and sent to the chain of command. You can't expect that ONE file will just suddenly make it self so important to surpass all others. After 9/11, Bush acted well. Bombing the crap out of Afghanistan was the right retaliatory option available, and at least he kept the war conventional.

People criticize us, but we at least fight conventionally. We could just bomb every city we suspect to have terrorists, but we don't. We could just destroy every Iraqi City, but we don't. If we don't enforce the world, no one will. If we act its bad, if we don't act it's bad. What do you want from us?

Our economy is slowly growing, immigration is a big issue, but it can't be fully blamed on Bush. He supports the amnesty plan, which seems like the only option. What are we to do? Deport 20 million people?

Outsourcing is a HUGE problem, but what can he do? He can do a bill, but it will be rejected by Congress because most Congressmen are either payed or supported by the corporations.

Iraq, pre-emtive strike...Okay, every other country in history can declare a war, but US does it and it's the END OF THE WORLD!!! Oh, its for OIL!!! Iraq is the 6th country we import the most oil. THE 6TH! GEESH, guess who's number one? Not Saudi Arabia, it's Canada.

We've established a democracy there, removed a dictator, and trying to re-established the region. Of-course there are more dictators, but if we remove one we're after oil. We can't attack the insurgents because we'd kill innocent people, and we don't fight un-conventional warfare.

America has the largest defense budget in the world, we have the most advanced weapons and armies. Our troops are the most trained in the world, but we're not prone to make mistakes. Intelligence might have been wrong[not sure if it was proven that it was bad intelligence], but what do you expect? For them to get every single thing right?

In the end, it depends on the individual. I personally think that Bush is a leader [he's the President, by default he's a leader], but not the best nor worse leader. He would rate in the low bottoms for a leader...

[PerpetualHeaven]

The Canadian army actually has requirements for you to join. Last time I checked almost anyone can sign up for the American army. I may be wrong though.

[Darth Odan]

Nope. In the American Military you have to:

Pass the ASVAB
Meet the physical requirements
Take drug tests
*depending on the job you're applying in the military* Complete investigation of your life [Friends, school record, conduct, criminal record, etc]

Also, if you fail in the ASVAB you can't join.

[zebatov]

No, it's true. And we have a Prime Minister because we are part of the British Empire.

I'am pretty sure it's BS Mario. There is no-way stuff like that would be tolerated in any armed forces.

They aren't the Armed Forces. They are an elite anti-terrorist group. For training, they take you into the woods with a knife and a set of clothes, (almost like the Green Beret) and that's it. They make you survive there for a week on your own. And yes, tests like this and other such things do come with "consequences" if you don't pass. And Minty may be right. The guy isn't really in it anymore, as he was living with his brother who was in the Air Force out in the back 40 for a while there.

[oVo Pandora oVo]

1st- you guys are forgetting our Delta Force which IMO is our most elite force, but you can't really compare forces since they all have different functions.
2nd- it is alot harder to get in any branch in our military these days, a GED just won't cut it in most cases anymore
3rd- I agree with Darth Odan in we are damned if we do damned if we don't
after 911 attacking Afghanistan, the Tali-Ban and Al-Queda was an appropriate response and we should have stayed and finished the job and found Osama dead or alive. IMO around the time leading up to invading Iraq our news was all about where is Osama, everyday was why can't we find Osama and his top guys. I believe we attacked Iraq so the spot light would be on somewhere else I mean Iraq is an easy target no real weapons, military wouldn't fight back except for his elite guard and we knew where Suddam was. So they had to make shit up to give us a reason to attack them. Now I can see the potential Iraq can be now for the Middle East, will they reach that potential anytime soon, sadly I don't think so. Don't forget France, Russian and Chinese weapons were also found there not just our own we sold them in the 80's.
4th- this was never about oil if it was I wouldn't be paying anywhere from $2.30 - $4 for gas anymore.
And if there is anything we can learn from all this is that you can't force Democracy on any country that isn't ready for it. You have to want it to the very core of who you are, if the majority are not prepared to fight for their own independence and freedoms even with support they are getting then it is doomed from the very start.
5th- I hope our country has learned what we don't want as a President, and that everyone that can vote will vote in 08 that is another problem we have only half that can vote do vote.
Bush fucked up big time IMO he has done many impeachable offenses but whether you are conservative, liberal or just in the middle no matter who is President the other side will always disagree and dislike for the most part who is in office

[xxb easy hoxx]

Wow I didn't know there were so many bush haters. Reading this forum is like watching CNN. President Bush may not be the greatest leader of all-time. (Reagan) but he is significantly better than any other candidate that was offered at the time. You can not seriously say that either Al Bored or Kerry could have done a better job. People seem to forget that we are in war time. Just because you do not agree with the war does not mean that the president is doing a bad job. You can not have somebody being a President that first off does not support or shall I even say respect our troops. That is the main reason that i did not support Kerry.

Somebody mentioned that the president failed during Katrina. You should know that during a federal disaster its your local government then your state government that reacts first. The state government failed to provide the proper steps for preventing the disaster that happened. Also before the National government can do anything during a disaster time the state government must ask for help. you need to look at the Senators of that state and blame them for the horrible Job that they did before and during Katrina. Florida has been dealing with hurricanes for years and have never had a disaster on the scale of Katrina. Plus a city that is built under sea level no matter what is going to flood and return to sea level sometime.

[xxb easy hoxx]

But not to get off topic. People forget that Bush has made this economy better then it has ever been and you can't argue that point because its a proven fact. things like gas prices do not determine whether the economy is doing bad or not. OPEC is in charge of gas prices. Plus democrats won't let anybody build oil refineries because they are scared that the shark are going to die or seals.

Bush is not a failure its the media that you watch everyday that has failed this country. They are run by lobbyist and people that are biased. Plus what brings better ratings positive stories of people in Iraq being freed from cruel a cruel government or our troops being gun downed and video taped by our own media (CNN)? In case you didn't know CNN are a bunch of traiters for the clip that they showed of one of our troops being sniped by Al Queda while they recorded it. Rating are more important than our troops.

[PerpetualHeaven]

But not to get off topic. People forget that Bush has made this economy better then it has ever been and you can't argue that point because its a proven fact. things like gas prices do not determine whether the economy is doing bad or not. OPEC is in charge of gas prices. Plus democrats won't let anybody build oil refineries because they are scared that the shark are going to die or seals.

Bush is not a failure its the media that you watch everyday that has failed this country. They are run by lobbyist and people that are biased. Plus what brings better ratings positive stories of people in Iraq being freed from cruel a cruel government or our troops being gun downed and video taped by our own media (CNN)? In case you didn't know CNN are a bunch of traiters for the clip that they showed of one of our troops being sniped by Al Queda while they recorded it. Rating are more important than our troops.\

Proven fact? I would like to see some links seeing the correlation between Bush being president and the economical growth of the USA because I definitely know it's non-existent.

[Webb]

If you definitely know something, then you must have fact to back that up...

[Zef]

On the 'extreme' training by military groups. The Russian/Ukranian anti-terrorist groups used to train by running their soldiers over (with trucks so they went under, not actually hit) and threw each other through windscreens. Not sure if they still do that any more, but the Discovery channel or some other documentary rich channel were showing crap loads of army stuff one day and that was one thing.

And proof that Bush = good economy?

http://www.gcse.com/analysing/linear.png

[I N64 I MaRiO]

But not to get off topic. People forget that Bush has made this economy better then it has ever been and you can't argue that point because its a proven fact. things like gas prices do not determine whether the economy is doing bad or not. OPEC is in charge of gas prices. Plus democrats won't let anybody build oil refineries because they are scared that the shark are going to die or seals.

Bush is not a failure its the media that you watch everyday that has failed this country. They are run by lobbyist and people that are biased. Plus what brings better ratings positive stories of people in Iraq being freed from cruel a cruel government or our troops being gun downed and video taped by our own media (CNN)? In case you didn't know CNN are a bunch of traiters for the clip that they showed of one of our troops being sniped by Al Queda while they recorded it. Rating are more important than our troops.
:bow:AMEN :bow:

[Minty]

:bow:AMEN :bow:

Stay out of this Mario, it doesnt affect you

[/Al Murray]

[I N64 I MaRiO]

:D i was just stating that what he said was well said

sorry to affend or whatever the hell i did..what'd i do?

i'm sure it doesn't affect me but does this thread really affect anybody? i mean its Bush a leader or a failure? im sure he can fall into both catagories..he did SOME good stuff and ALOT of plain dumb shit...but don't all presidents do that ?

any way MINTY just saying...i know it doesnt affect me


wait...why doesnt it affect me? :( am i being left out again?

[/chris rock]...funny voice :)

[Darth Odan]

Wow I didn't know there were so many bush haters. Reading this forum is like watching CNN. President Bush may not be the greatest leader of all-time. (Reagan) but he is significantly better than any other candidate that was offered at the time. You can not seriously say that either Al Bored or Kerry could have done a better job. People seem to forget that we are in war time. Just because you do not agree with the war does not mean that the president is doing a bad job. You can not have somebody being a President that first off does not support or shall I even say respect our troops. That is the main reason that i did not support Kerry.

Somebody mentioned that the president failed during Katrina. You should know that during a federal disaster its your local government then your state government that reacts first. The state government failed to provide the proper steps for preventing the disaster that happened. Also before the National government can do anything during a disaster time the state government must ask for help. you need to look at the Senators of that state and blame them for the horrible Job that they did before and during Katrina. Florida has been dealing with hurricanes for years and have never had a disaster on the scale of Katrina. Plus a city that is built under sea level no matter what is going to flood and return to sea level sometime.


As Mario said, amen XD. The second post...well, it's a kinda agree.

Don't you people watch the State of the Union speech...? 0_o The economy has grown, not to the best extent, but it has...Problem is that the Rich get tax cuts, so thats why it seems that the economy isn't growing, the middle class don't have tax cuts...

[Darth Odan]

Here's a link for the Economic Growth:

http://bea.gov/bea/newsrel/gdpnewsrelease.htm


Please, provide a link that says that the economy hasn't grown at all.

[PerpetualHeaven]

And this is all because of Bush? I asked for correlation.
And GDP doesn't account for everything. Doesn't account for the amount of poor, the lack of jobs, or how many people don't have jobs. It misses a lot of things. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Who cares about GDP when you should care about the people.

[I N64 I MaRiO]

And this is all because of Bush? I asked for correlation.
And GDP doesn't account for everything. Doesn't account for the amount of poor, the lack of jobs, or how many people don't have jobs. It misses a lot of things. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Who cares about GDP when you should care about the people.
1337 post:p

but i'm thinking you have some sorta personal vendetta against bush.. i can't quite point my finger on it..

but congrats on that 1337 post:Bounce:

[Darth Odan]

And this is all because of Bush? I asked for correlation.
And GDP doesn't account for everything. Doesn't account for the amount of poor, the lack of jobs, or how many people don't have jobs. It misses a lot of things. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Who cares about GDP when you should care about the people.


Of-course one man can't do everything. Tell me that every single president before Bush has single handedly, alone, without help of his cabinet or anyone else, done anything positive for this country? Yes, the middle and lower classes are getting screwed, but who voted for that law? The Congress.

[oVo Pandora oVo]

Here's a link for the Economic Growth:

http://bea.gov/bea/newsrel/gdpnewsrelease.htm


Please, provide a link that says that the economy hasn't grown at all.

It's easy for the economy to grow when it's been in the dumps lol but easy ho stated our economy is the best it has ever been I don't think people would disagree we have had economic growth the best ever though I don't think so. Why does it take a new congress to want to raise the National Minimum Wage ?

[PerpetualHeaven]

1337 post:p

but i'm thinking you have some sorta personal vendetta against bush.. i can't quite point my finger on it..

but congrats on that 1337 post

I don't have a personal vendetta against him. I just think he's a bad leader. That's like saying I have a personal vendetta against Hitler. I don't I just know Hitler was a lunatic and I can recognize that.

The economy may be growing according to GDP, but doesn't mean your society is in great shape. Like I said, it doesn't account for a lot of things.

Read this:
http://usliberals.about.com/b/a/252689.htm (http://usliberals.about.com/b/a/252689.htm) - Raising the debt ceiling because of the Iraq war. GDP didn't show that US is in massive debt does it? Quick quote from that article:

""Any objective analysis of our country's fiscal history would have to conclude this administration and this rubberstamping Republican Congress are the most fiscally irresponsible in the history of our country. In fact, no other president or Congress even comes close," - Democratic Senate Leader Harry Reid

As I said GDP doesn't show anything for the poor. Here's more proof:
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0525-31.htm (http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0525-31.htm)
Quick quote for you from the article:


"For overall poverty, the U.S. numbers (17.1 percent) for 2000 were significantly higher than for most European countries. France, Germany, and the United Kingdom had poverty rates of 7.0 percent, 9.8 percent, and 11.4 percent, respectively. Canada and Japan were lower than the United States, too, with a poverty rate of 10.3 percent and 15.3 percent, respectively. The organization average was just 10.2 percent.

For child poverty, the story was not much different. The U.S. rate (21.7 percent) was much higher than most members of the organization or the organization's average as a whole (12.1 percent). The Scandinavian nations had child poverty rates in the 2 to 3 percent range.
Speaking of poor. How about taking away food stamps from the poor?"

Speaking of poor. How about taking food stamps from the poor?
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/us-poor-set-to-lose-food-stamps/2005/10/29/1130400390006.html

[Darth Odan]

Yes, we are in debt, that I can't deny and none of us can. But, that is to be expected. We have a large debt with China [not sure how much] and from what it seems, trillions in Iraq. The point was that the economy was growing, not the essence of debt nor social in-tranquility. It is a shame that during its dominance, the Republican Congress placed tax cuts on the rich, but hopefully the democrats will actually do something about it and not make non-binding resolutions that do nothing.

It confuses me, they have majority in the House, Senate, and Congress; yet they haven't done much...I mean, the President can't stop that, he can veto, but it'll be over turned...

[PerpetualHeaven]

I know it's growing and that's great. It's always been growing regardless of who the president is. US is a fast growing country. It's an awesome place to live and I love being there everytime i'm at my cousins in Michigan. But, I do not credit America being the great place it is because of Bush and it never has been because of Bush and it never will be.

Just some quick figures to throw out there:
http://hnn.us/articles/5019.html - Historians vs George W. Bush

81% found him to be a failure. The 19% who thought he was successful, their version of success meant that he was successful in creating terrible policies. Read it. It's nice.

[Darth Odan]

Btw: That link is about December 05 XD

I don't quite understand this part " But, I do not credit America being the great place it is because of Bush and it never has been because of Bush and it never will be." so, I'll reply with something, but correct me if I misunderstood:

America is a great country, at least when it comes to ideals. We [Americans], love freedom, and other good and positive values, but sadly we love bad ones too. Our Armed Forces are a great thing, and are full of pride in their service. In particular, the Army is a great thing, whether you believe it or not, the army isn't all about killing, but the army has the most jobs of all the branches and is the only one with a Morality Guide [LDRSHIP]. I know that most Americans are...Ass Holes, but thinking that America isn't great because of one man is just terrible.

That man is our Commander in Chief, sure, he makes mistakes but we're all humans. Many countries before us have done the things we've done, and worse! We fight conventionally, and came in with a good intention, but the world hates us. They hate us because of one man. They hate us because we believe everyone is equal, we believe in Freedom and Liberty, they hate us because we let women wear what ever they want and vote.

People hate us because " America is a democracy. Let the people choose!" That's wrong to begin with. America is a Federal Republic, where the law rules, not the majority of people. The law states something, and everyone blames Bush. Congress approves something..Nope! Blame Bush! Not the Congress that accepted that bill! Blame ONE man!

[PerpetualHeaven]

Btw: That link is about December 05 XD

I don't quite understand this part " But, I do not credit America being the great place it is because of Bush and it never has been because of Bush and it never will be." so, I'll reply with something, but correct me if I misunderstood:

America is a great country, at least when it comes to ideals. We [Americans], love freedom, and other good and positive values, but sadly we love bad ones too. Our Armed Forces are a great thing, and are full of pride in their service. In particular, the Army is a great thing, whether you believe it or not, the army isn't all about killing, but the army has the most jobs of all the branches and is the only one with a Morality Guide [LDRSHIP]. I know that most Americans are...Ass Holes, but thinking that America isn't great because of one man is just terrible.

That man is our Commander in Chief, sure, he makes mistakes but we're all humans. Many countries before us have done the things we've done, and worse! We fight conventionally, and came in with a good intention, but the world hates us. They hate us because of one man. They hate us because we believe everyone is equal, we believe in Freedom and Liberty, they hate us because we let women wear what ever they want and vote.

People hate us because " America is a democracy. Let the people choose!" That's wrong to begin with. America is a Federal Republic, where the law rules, not the majority of people. The law states something, and everyone blames Bush. Congress approves something..Nope! Blame Bush! Not the Congress that accepted that bill! Blame ONE man!

He's the president for a reason. And not everyone hates America. I don't hate America. As for Bush, well people hate you guys because you elected the same guy twice. Even though some think the election was rigged twice and if Kerry was elected it may have been much worse but regardless. I have nothing against America. But Bush is not my cup of tea and I think he's a horrible leader.

One more thing for the person who said about Katrina and someone else bein there first. All I was saying was that Bush was napping around doing his thing, enjoying his time while people suffered in New Orleans when they could have used the moral support of their leader. Being a leader isn't just about passing bills, making desicions, etc. You have to be there for your people. And I don't think Bush has shown that. How? Well every speech he gives to the people is a bunch of lies. It's physically obvious that he lies through his teeth. Not only that but he rehashes the same speech a lot. He blinks like a madman, his eyes are constantly moving, there are hints of microexpressions, etc. Just lies.. very badly.

But who cares, Bush is gone after this year thank the lord and hopefully who ever is after him does a better job. It's hard to top what Bush has done. But that's just my opinion. I don't expect everyone to think he's a bad leader.

And yes sept 05 is the links date and if anything, I think things have gotten worse. I don't think anyone is going to change their mind over a year and few months about Bush. And i know it's not only bush. His entire cabinet is full of people like him.

[I N64 I MaRiO]

this is going to come outta nowhere..but,
that'd be cool if oprah winfrey was elected..

its a 2 for 1
a women...
and a black person

or hell a 3 for 1

a women
a black person
a black women:D

but kerry IMO woulda been better than bush 2nd term :eek:
i know i can't beleive i said it..but i did.. he's got big jowels..and he laughs funny:)
and i heard that bush isn't writing a journal like previous presidents before him..i wonder why :rolleyes:
( clinton wrote a journal, bush sr. wrote a journal...about day-to-day life about presidency...and what they did while in office etc. )

[Darth Odan]

Ah, I think I took your previous statement out of context. The thing is that we have the Electoral College [which should be removed T.T], which is why Bush won twice. The microexpresions is because when he lies or says something, he isn't confident about it. I mean, someone can lie and convince you well, but he does blink like 5464684654 times nor does he look at you like " BELIEVE ME"

On the most part about being a leader, I agree. A leader leads by example. I mean, if he had gone there to New Orleans and stayed with the people, then one could say he isn't bad. But, that was just terrriblre.

[I N64 I MaRiO]

electoral college votes for the guy with majority..so bush would have won anyways...

a leader has to be a follower first :D

[Darth Odan]

electoral college votes for the guy with majority..so bush would have won anyways...

a leader has to be a follower first :D


Ugh, no. Electoral Votes doesn't count the majority. Al Gore had the majority in the elections but lost by electoral vote. It's complicated, from what I've gathered from Politcal Science class [cousin takes them and then teaches me]. Basically, the people choose the Elector and then in December the Electors of the Electoral College VOTE for the President.

[Bludy ASSASSIN]

it's amazing after 3 days that this thread has near 200 posts. it just seams politics just start heeted arguments and in the end no one side really wins. but since this post is about bush lets get started.
First, he has stained this country, and the way people view and talk about it,he has let our economy dwindle its harder for people to find jobs and for people with out jobs almost imposible. he sits in his texas ranch whil hundreds of thousands or more people starve and live out on the streets probably a 1/4 to a fifth of them being women and children.
He has ignored the peoples voice and is sending more soldiers into the middle east, our govrnment was almost out of debt until he started this war on people that had nothing to do or support the 911 attack. has spent hundreds of thoasands of tax dollars on singling out most of the muslims and people of muslim decent taping thier phone lines and arresting them for no right reason.(how many people were actaully guilty that were arrested) all that money could have been used to help Katrina victims when the insurance agencies bitched out,( that he never really acted anyway correct on) or to put the money back that he took out of school funding, or finishing paying off the debt that we wouldn't have cause of him,or how about medicare and supporting the elderly and retired who cant afford their meds.
We are the world supper power and we depend more on other countries like china. the piont is he's a failure he is the president of the USA and cant take care of a war he really started (besides the bombing) but i thought the main goal ws to search for weopons of mass destuction(hs he found any? and after how many years of searching?) and know we're in the middle of a civil war of a different countrie if he cant take care of the US people then he shouldn't be tring to help some other countrie the only reason hes doing this is so we have a nice steady flow of oil coming to the US so the oil "componies" get richier and growe greadier. so yes hes a major failure but whats he care after his times up he cnt be re-elected anways.

[Bludy ASSASSIN]

electoral college votes for the guy with majority..so bush would have won anyways...

a leader has to be a follower first :D

this is how it goes in a more specific explenation.

when elction time come around people vote for the select few to represent them in the votes. now what there supposed to do is vote for what the the people said going by majority loosly.know every state has a sertine amount of electoral votes judjing on the population texas having the most (thats why bush wonhttp://www.xbox360achievements.org/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif) thats why u here about the runners for pres going to all the states not to have a goodtime and all that all they care about is the votes. so then the reps vote for pres and say that MO's reps go for 11 for the dems and 2 fo the repulics those pionts go to there pres and then whoever has most electoal votes win. even though the dems won the majority bush still had more electoral votes http://www.xbox360achievements.org/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif

[xxb easy hoxx]

Nobody has a right to say anything about the way that bush won because he won the same way that Clinton and former presidents have won. one thing that i can say about some people is that they expect their government to do everything for them. If you can't find a job in America it's because you aren't looking hard enough. Just remember people the more you want from the government the more taxes that you have to pay. They don't work for free. but i guess you guys already know that because you are the ones supporting higher taxes for things like dirty sluts getting their welfare check every month because they can't keep their legs closed. The lower your taxes the more people spend and the more the economy grows. That is why the stock market hit record high's during Bush's administration.

[PerpetualHeaven]

Nobody has a right to say anything about the way that bush won because he won the same way that Clinton and former presidents have won. one thing that i can say about some people is that they expect their government to do everything for them. If you can't find a job in America it's because you aren't looking hard enough. Just remember people the more you want from the government the more taxes that you have to pay. They don't work for free. but i guess you guys already know that because you are the ones supporting higher taxes for things like dirty sluts getting their welfare check every month because they can't keep their legs closed. The lower your taxes the more people spend and the more the economy grows. That is why the stock market hit record high's during Bush's administration.

That's just how it is? Not looking hard enough? What would you know exactly about being dirt poor with no job? And you think people live in luxury with a welfare check? Man welfare in North America isn't that much. Doesn't even meet most of the necessities of life. I mean in Canada it was cut down 23% a few years ago now people only getting 400. 400 for what? I don't even think you can pay off a single bedroom apartment in Canada for 400 bucks a month.

You think minimum wage just cuts it? Life is getting more and more expensive man. It's not cheap to live a mediocre life. Sometimes just getting a job doesn't get you by. Some can't afford to get a proper education or to hone their skills to be good at things. They don't have those opportunities. If you're born into a poor family, you'll generally end up being poor. It's hard to break out of that chain. You can't just sit here and be like, "You know they aren't trying hard enough." That life is different man. It's not the same life everyone leads. It's not just one day you go, "Oh yeah you know i'm poor I better go find a job you know how it easy it is with my amazing experience."

I believe in redistribution and I don't mind paying taxes so people who are dirt poor can still go in to the doctors even if the service isn't grade A. Unleast I know i'm contributing so people will still maybe have a chance. And 14% isn't nothing. Look at Europe. They redistribute so much. And their poverty rates are so much lower then North Americas. I wonder why? People pay taxes out of their ass there but unleast everyone is getting equal opportunities and have a chance at a decent life.

[Webb]

I believe in redistribution and I don't mind paying taxes so people who are dirt poor can still go in to the doctors even if the service isn't grade A. Unleast I know i'm contributing so people will still maybe have a chance. And 14% isn't nothing. Look at Europe. They redistribute so much. And their poverty rates are so much lower then North Americas. I wonder why? People pay taxes out of their ass there but unleast everyone is getting equal opportunities and have a chance at a decent life.

So you think it's fair that people who work 40 hour weeks pay for those that do nothing all week. Hardly. You work a few years at 33% tax and you'd soon change your opinion when you see the adverse affect it is having on our nation. It may mean that poverty levels are less but the simple fact that this system is crippling the hard working men and women of this nation is hardly a worthy sacrifice. The attitude of a majority of people is "Whats the point? When I can do nothing and get pretty much the same"

Not the desired effect that you perceive.

[Minty]

Yeah, we redistribute wealth. And I pay 40% tax so that I can pay for some lazy little twat who cant be arsed to get a job, and feels that having 7 children and watching Jerry Springer is a career.

So why is it fair that I work 60+ hours a week, and have to give over 40% of my earnings?? If i liked children id be happy at home with 7 of them laughing at American rednecks.

[CAMOUFLAGEiPOD]

Politics and Religon, are two things I never talk about when I am drunk (hiccup) People are so convinced they are on the winning team they wont lend a ear to the innocent.

[PerpetualHeaven]

So you think it's fair that people who work 40 hour weeks pay for those that do nothing all week. Hardly. You work a few years at 33% tax and you'd soon change your opinion when you see the adverse affect it is having on our nation. It may mean that poverty levels are less but the simple fact that this system is crippling the hard working men and women of this nation is hardly a worthy sacrifice. The attitude of a majority of people is "Whats the point? When I can do nothing and get pretty much the same"

Not the desired effect that you perceive.

I don't pay 33% but I would have a problem. I don't mind paying 14% which is almost double what some Americans pay. Even so, the government should properly redistribute. There should be some equality for those who don't have similar opportunities.

I mean Canada is viewed as a socialist country and we redistribute extremely well with 14% tax. I can't speak for the UK so I won't but I don't mind paying 14% knowing that it's going towards free health care, welfare for people who actually need it, etc. I don't think to myself that people can't get off their ass to go get a job. It isn't always as easy as that and I acknowledge it.

Now you're probably right that 33% is crippling the people who are working hard. That is more then double what Canadians pay and 5 times what some Americans pay. I don't know how much welfare people get in the UK but it's almost nothing in Canada. It's not like people can just sit back and enjoy life while people are working hard trying to support their family. Welfare is running around 400$CDN a month here which is barely anything.

So yeah I don't mind working hard and paying some taxes but that's for the tax percent here in Canada. I'd probably pissed about the percent over in the UK.

Out of curiousity, where do you tax dollars go? That's a crap load of money so i'm just wondering.