The World On Nuclear Standby

[Webb]

So, then, North Korea claim that they successfully tested a nuclear bomb in the early hours of this morning...

Stories are below...

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6033457.stm)

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/09/korea.nuclear.test/index.html)

Reuters (http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=newsOne&storyID=2006-10-09T100347Z_01_L08141538_RTRUKOC_0_US-KOREA-NORTH.xml&src=100906_0758_TOPSTORY_north_korea_tests_nuclear _device)

It is a dodgy time for us all at the moment as one of the biggest armies in the world seems to be now nuclear.

Discuss.

[Minty]

Another idiotic dictator with Nukes.

Happy happy joy joy

[Zee]

Were Doomed.

[Mr Arrow]

Seems to me it's just a matter of time before North Korea sits down and plays eBay with the Iranians......then we need to dust off the BIG bombs!

[aPerfektFIaw]

i feel worse for the UK --- you guys are too close for comfort... though they hate us (for whatever reason).... just tell them you dont know us, you met us at a party, we gave you a ride home and that was it

[RiddlingCat]

While us Canadians play hockey ... :p

[aPerfektFIaw]

While us Canadians play hockey ... :p

please... a nuke goes off here and youll be in earthquake city haha... or maybe i shouldnt be making jokes :confused:

everyone picks on us but all i do is play my 360! damn stupid presidents should run this country better

[Minty]

i feel worse for the UK --- you guys are too close for comfort... though they hate us (for whatever reason).... just tell them you dont know us, you met us at a party, we gave you a ride home and that was it

We already do ;)

damn stupid presidents should run this country better

No comment whatsoever

[aPerfektFIaw]

ehh pretty soon ill be holding a 1 way ticket to europe... itll be easier to deal with some release delays than the shit we have to deal with here

this is coming from someone who USED to be pro Bush... now ive slowly snapped back to reality recently

anywho... how are the ladies there? lol

[graf1k]

As crazy as Kim Jong Il seems, even if he does have/gets a functioning nuke, he's not dumb enough to use it. He's just going to use that shit as leverage.

The thing that gets me though is that if the U.S. armed forces weren't already bogged down in Iraq old Kimmy wouldn't have had the balls to go ahead with his nuclear program because he knew there would be a chance of retalliation. As is though we have no real military recourse against Iran and certainly not North Korea. Hell we don't have enough soldiers to secure Afghanistan and Iraq much less Iran and NK. Only way to get enough troops for that is a draft and if that will not happen because Republicans know if they do an all out draft they'll not see anything even resembling a majority in Congress or a Republican President for another 20 or so years.

[L3giOn]

As crazy as Kim Jong Il seems, even if he does have/gets a functioning nuke, he's not dumb enough to use it. He's just going to use that shit as leverage.

The thing that gets me though is that if the U.S. armed forces weren't already bogged down in Iraq old Kimmy wouldn't have had the balls to go ahead with his nuclear program because he knew there would be a chance of retalliation. As is though we have no real military recourse against Iran and certainly not North Korea. Hell we don't have enough soldiers to secure Afghanistan and Iraq much less Iran and NK. Only way to get enough troops for that is a draft and if that will not happen because Republicans know if they do an all out draft they'll not see anything even resembling a majority in Congress or a Republican President for another 20 or so years.

That's because sure as hell the liberals wouldn't do anything about it. They'd rather we all live in a 'utopian society'. :rolleyes:

I'm not worried about it though, if they ever launched a nuke at the US it wouldn't even get close.

[Cause]

Belive me, my family are all in the army and there is no way they can get to U.S because we have subs all around those supposed nuclear countries. Right when they tried anything they would get bombed.

[Blind Fool]

That's because sure as hell the liberals wouldn't do anything about it. They'd rather we all live in a 'utopian society'. :rolleyes:

I'm not worried about it though, if they ever launched a nuke at the US it wouldn't even get close. Um hate to tell you but some of the intercontinetal missiles have more than enough range and at mach15 you wouldnt have a huge amount of time to kiss your arse goodbye!

Sad day indeed, but sooner or later every army in the world will have nukes, not like they are hard to make, even I know the basics, although not sure on the nuclear core part thankfully!

[Minty]

Belive me, my family are all in the army and there is no way they can get to U.S because we have subs all around those supposed nuclear countries. Right when they tried anything they would get bombed.

Yeah great, you send a Nuke to them after they send one to you, cos that makes things better.
Plus the army arent going to be the greatest experts on submarines either.

And the bomb might not hit you, but the radiation will. When Chenobylle happened- the radiation was recorded from New Zealand to Wales. Thats half the damn planet.

[aPerfektFIaw]

welp, better get crackin on my Dead Rising or Doom... all the radiation is bound to make some zombies --- can anyone tell me where to find a BFG-9000?

[RiddlingCat]

I just picked one up, Wal-Mart's having a clearance on them. Better get one quickly before they sell out ! Plus, I'm trying to kill time right now, I'm playing infinite mode in DR, and damn is it long! This elevator music's getting to me too ... :p

[Flea]

At the end of the day we cant do jackshit about it,
people suffer bacause of dicks like bush and all the other supposed world leaders.

Theres starvation,poverty and loads of other crap and these dicks are building nuclear weapons and only giving a shit about themselves.

Fuck jong with his girls name and all the rest of the fools.

[RiddlingCat]

At the end of the day we cant do jackshit about it,
people suffer bacause of dicks like bush and all the other supposed world leaders.

Theres starvation,poverty and loads of other crap and these dicks are building nuclear weapons and only giving a shit about themselves.

Fuck jong with his girls name and all the rest of the fools.

Amen to that brother !

[invincible rob]

Don't tell me this is another one of those "life threatning", "world on the edge of thier seat", "nuclear wars about to break-out" stories, like the story about saddam hussein and all his magic weapons of mass destruction that it took us four years NOT to find anything.
Lets face it folks if this guy was gunna do anything other than test these weapons, i think we will have seen some aggression, but from all i've heard all the north korean leader has done is defend the fact that he is testing them.

And too aPerfektFLaw, LMAO, wheres a real mega-man mega buster when you need one!!!

[aPerfektFIaw]

i would support ANY country that has another country hating them for abolutely no understandable reason at all...

i did agree with the war on Iraq... not just because i live in America...

I think its stupid to raise kids and brain wash adults into thinking another country is their enemy just because the leader is jealous or has a vendetta

wtf kind of country is that? be proud of what you have... and if you dont like it, LEAVE...

Im not "proud to be an American" but at least I can say that I always felt safe where I was... until recently... and it shouldnt be like this

fuck the stupid brain washing leaders of countries that can barely keep a stable government over their people... the people that they pretend to protect, but in all reality they lure them into making asses of themselves... and for what? what kind of promises can they actually keep?

"Ohhh well we flew a few planes into some towers and killed hundreds of people... we are on the right track" oh yeah? please... if they concentrated more on making something of their own country rather than blaming and hating others, Im sure this world would be a much better place right now.

And too aPerfektFLaw, LMAO, wheres a real mega-man mega buster when you need one!!!

I keep that in my WMD closet haha

[L3giOn]

At the end of the day we cant do jackshit about it,
people suffer bacause of dicks like bush and all the other supposed world leaders.

Don't ever fucking start in on MY President of MY country because I don't put up with that shit. You don't see me going around bashing Tony Blair do you? Bush is doing what most people don't have the balls to do, and I don't want to hear your hippie extremist bullshit. Leave my country and my leader out of this.

[Blind Fool]

"Ohhh well we flew a few planes into some towers and killed hundreds of people... we are on the right track" oh yeah? please... if they concentrated more on making something of their own country rather than blaming and hating others, Im sure this world would be a much better place right now. Now that is an a-fucking-men :)

On a side note of hate and equality, go to Dubai, its a muslim state that is muslim, break the rules and you will serve hard time, and they mean hard time, not time off for good behaviour.

Everyone and I mean everyone works together in harmony, Christians get xmas off as the muslims work it but ask the Christians to work their holidays instead.

If you dont like how the country is run then kindly dont go is the attitude. For once a country that actually works, there is no crime, little poverty (although the indian builders dont do well by our standards, but are rich by their own and are happy), and generally a fantastic way of life.

If only more countries could follow this example!

[invincible rob]

i would support ANY country that has another country hating them for abolutely no understandable reason at all...

i did agree with the war on Iraq... not just because i live in America...

I think its stupid to raise kids and brain wash adults into thinking another country is their enemy just because the leader is jealous or has a vendetta

wtf kind of country is that? be proud of what you have... and if you dont like it, LEAVE...

Im not "proud to be an American" but at least I can say that I always felt safe where I was... until recently... and it shouldnt be like this

fuck the stupid brain washing leaders of countries that can barely keep a stable government over their people... the people that they pretend to protect, but in all reality they lure them into making asses of themselves... and for what? what kind of promises can they actually keep?

"Ohhh well we flew a few planes into some towers and killed hundreds of people... we are on the right track" oh yeah? please... if they concentrated more on making something of their own country rather than blaming and hating others, Im sure this world would be a much better place right now.



I keep that in my WMD closet haha


I agree with everything you just said, I think the iraq war WAS necessary, but not for Britain to get involved, and im not saying that because in British, it's because the only reason we did get involved was that Tony Blair is a stupid boot lick.

P.s: I always keep a couple of AK47's in the wardrobe and a couple of bazookas under the bed, if you ever need anything in the arms dept just ask :p .

[Flea]

Don't ever fucking start in on MY President of MY country because I don't put up with that shit. You don't see me going around bashing Tony Blair do you? Bush is doing what most people don't have the balls to do, and I don't want to hear your hippie extremist bullshit. Leave my country and my leader out of this.

I would leave your president out of it but he would stick his nose in anyway,
:p
at the end of the day its my view,
you dont have to agree with it,
Oh and im not a hippie or an extremist i just think that the supposed world leaders are all fucked in the head,
sure they say we will do this and that,but then they get elected and do fuck all.
If you dont like my point of view then good for you,im not gonna change it because it upsets you,
We are all free to think what we want.

[Blind Fool]

You know Flea I just sent Legion a PM after your last post, but seeing that you deserve all the shit you can get.

Open your eyes to the world and don't be such an idiot.

[aPerfektFIaw]

Although I feel a little uneasy with Bush right now... I still would have voted for him over anyone back when he was elected... he has done a lot, and the Bush-Hating trend is nothing more than that, a trend... a bandwagon to jump on

most people dont even have a clue as to why they hate Bush, and if they knew how much he has actually done, then there would be a lot of embarassed people out there...

he gets my vote next election unless the next democrat can step up and prove himself worthy... but the last one that did earned ZERO respect from me.

im always teetering when it comes to my president but i have faith in him... and that will always get my vote

[Flea]

So im not allowed my opinion?
Maybe you just look at the world from a different view.
I dont see why legion needs to get so defensive about his president and country,
If someone says something i dont agree with then fine,
at the end of the day its only an opinion.

[Minty]

Fleam is entitled to his opinion, exactly the same as anyone else is.

He may not be tactful about it, but his views are his views.

This gets back on subject, or it gets locked.

[Krazie]

Don't ever fucking start in on MY President of MY country because I don't put up with that shit. You don't see me going around bashing Tony Blair do you? Bush is doing what most people don't have the balls to do, and I don't want to hear your hippie extremist bullshit. Leave my country and my leader out of this.

Oh God Legion, well considering he's MY president from MY country, I'll say this..

He's definitely in the top 3 worst presidents of all time, and I'm just waiting for him to make the wrong move, because we all know its going to happen.

[L3giOn]

So im not allowed my opinion?
Maybe you just look at the world from a different view.
I dont see why legion needs to get so defensive about his president and country,
If someone says something i dont agree with then fine,
at the end of the day its only an opinion.

Because if no one cared about this country, then it wouldn't be free.

[L3giOn]

He's definitely in the top 3 worst presidents of all time, and I'm just waiting for him to make the wrong move, because we all know its going to happen.

I would love to see you try to back that ignorant statement up.

[Flea]

Well im still not changing my opinion.
And to get back on topic i think kim will not be afraid to use the nukes if he gets pushed into it.

Natos not impressed
This is from their site
The Alliance condemns in the strongest terms possible the North Korean nuclear weapon test. This test poses an extremely serious threat to peace and security in the Pacific region and the world.

The Alliance calls upon North Korea to cease immediately the development of any nuclear weapon technologies, to return immediately to the Six Party Talks without precondition, and to completely and verifiably eliminate its nuclear weapons and related programmes.

The Alliance joins all of the international community in calling on the DPRK to abide by its non-proliferation obligations, and will continue to monitor developments with attention and deep concern.

[aPerfektFIaw]

ANYWAYS... back to the matter at hand...

(dont get upset Joe lol its only opinions... I dont agree with them either but we can easily start another thread... or not... my opinion is whats important to me, and as should yours... lets talk about it over a 6 pack later lol)

[L3giOn]

You know what? Nevermind Krazie. How old are you, 20 right? That's the kind of thing that's expected from the youth today. You're not different from anyone else your age. Maybe some day when you're older and more mature you'll change your views. Until then, I'm not going to argue with your ignorance.

[Flea]

I did get back on topic flaw i posted this from Natos site,

The Alliance condemns in the strongest terms possible the North Korean nuclear weapon test. This test poses an extremely serious threat to peace and security in the Pacific region and the world.

The Alliance calls upon North Korea to cease immediately the development of any nuclear weapon technologies, to return immediately to the Six Party Talks without precondition, and to completely and verifiably eliminate its nuclear weapons and related programmes.

The Alliance joins all of the international community in calling on the DPRK to abide by its non-proliferation obligations, and will continue to monitor developments with attention and deep concern.

[invincible rob]

You know what? Nevermind Krazie. How old are you, 20 right? That's the kind of thing that's expected from the youth today. You're not different from anyone else your age. Maybe some day when you're older and more mature you'll change your views. Until then, I'm not going to argue with your ignorance.
In some ways I Agree with what Legion is saying, I think the government get too much stick from the media about the way they handle things and this is going to be the same it doesnt matter how they handle this situation, the media is going to have a negative view on things.

And for the record, Im 15 i have as much faith in the government as america had in russia in 1948.

[aPerfektFIaw]

The Alliance calls upon North Korea to cease immediately the development of any nuclear weapon technologies, to return immediately to the Six Party Talks without precondition, and to completely and verifiably eliminate its nuclear weapons and related programmes.

good call... hopefully iL doesnt get too big headed over this...

[Flea]

You know what? Nevermind Krazie. How old are you, 20 right? That's the kind of thing that's expected from the youth today. You're not different from anyone else your age. Maybe some day when you're older and more mature you'll change your views. Until then, I'm not going to argue with your ignorance.

Sorry i know this is off topic but Legion your calling Krazies opinion because hes young?
Your only 24 yourself which is still young,
and age has nothing to do with maturity.
If you wish to discuss that further please send me a pm so it saves everyone else reading our posts on the subject.

[aPerfektFIaw]

or we can just get completely back on topic... which would be cool because id like for this thread to stay open

[Flea]

Found this intresting site
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/index.html
Its supposedly a rough guide to a countrys weapons

[Krazie]

I would love to see you try to back that ignorant statement up.

I don't have to back it up, just take a look at how fucked up things have continuously gotten over the past 6 years. Granted, not everything was his fault, but he really hasn't done anything good in office, and as an ignorant Republican that I can tell you are, you'll continue to back him even after how much of a hole he has put our country in. Yes, I'm a democrat, but I'm not a strict one, I would vote for a Republican if it was in the best interest of our country. Unfortunately for us and our children, Replublicans would vote Republican no matter who was running because they're so close-minded, which was proven when they put Bush in for a second term. Thank God Adolf Hitler or Saddam Hussein weren't American Republicans running for president :( . I know, Kerry wasn't anything great, but he was definitely the lesser of two evils.

[Flea]

http://www.thebulletin.org/doomsday_clock/current_time.htm
Its amazing that the times not changed since feb 2002.
Which also says a lot for how much danger the scientists think we are in.

[Krazie]

You know what? Nevermind Krazie. How old are you, 20 right? That's the kind of thing that's expected from the youth today. You're not different from anyone else your age. Maybe some day when you're older and more mature you'll change your views. Until then, I'm not going to argue with your ignorance.

Last statement, this topic needs to get back on-topic because this is important stuff, American politics has no place in here, and me and legion aren't setting very good examples of that! No more conversation outside the boundaries. If any posts following this one aren't relating to the topic at hand, I will personally delete them.

[snafegeeza]

Im pro-Bush and pro-Blair. The UK has just got rid of one of the best prime ministers this nation has ever seen who made descsions based on what he believed was right at the time. He sure fucked a few things up also but ultimatly bush and blair have had the balls to make descsions that many would have shyed away from.

I would aso support force against North Korea also, an unstable nation with nuclear capabilities is a frightening predicament for future world peace, even if he only intends to use it as a bargaining chip.

[Webb]

FFS, can you lot not have a discussion without making this a us vs them :rolleyes:

I mean, we're on the same side here! Get with it!!

Either way, the main player in this is not the US, not the UK, not anyone in Europe or North America, the main players are China!

The Chinese offer so much aid for most of Korea's poverty stricken areas, if the North Koreans piss off the Chinese, they have two options, live with NK and their nuke or pull out their resources in NK and watch the country hit rock bottom. Why don't they just do the latter? Because they will get the fall out of the poverty, i.e. shit loads of immigrants!

[aPerfektFIaw]

Im pro-Bush and pro-Blair. The UK has just got rid of one of the best prime ministers this nation has ever seen who made descsions based on what he believed was right at the time. He sure fucked a few things up also but ultimatly bush and blair have had the balls to make descsions that many would have shyed away from.

I would aso support force against North Korea also, an unstable nation with nuclear capabilities is a frightening predicament for future world peace, even if he only intends to use it as a bargaining chip.

couldnt have said that better myself

[L3giOn]

Just shows how uneducated you are that you call someone ignorant for not accepting your views, typical Republican, especially based on age when you're 4 years older than me, even though my "mental age" probably far surpasses yours :p ..

Last statement, this topic needs to get back on-topic because this is important stuff, American politics has no place in here, and me and legion aren't setting very good examples of that! No more conversation outside the boundaries. If any posts following this one aren't relating to the topic at hand, I will personally delete them.

Yes Krazie, you're so much better than me. And maybe you should delete your own post instead of threatening to delete other people's, since yours is just as off topic. Like I said, I'm not arguing with you because obviously it's a battle of wits, and you are unarmed.

[Krazie]

Yes Krazie, you're so much better than me. And maybe you should delete your own post instead of threatening to delete other people's, since yours is just as off topic. Like I said, I'm not arguing with you because obviously it's a battle of wits, and you are unarmed.

It's over legion, if you really wanna dish out meaningless insults to people for not having the same views as you do, just take it to PM, MSN, etc. This doesn't need to be continued in this thread any longer, we have a potentially serious issue here, and if you can't handle a mature discussion because your feelings might get hurt over people knocking your precious Bush, then don't participate.

[Tron]

education is a word that is being thrown around too loosely... no one here in this forum really knows whats going on with NK or with Bush or anything else government related. The media guides us to a way of thinking, its all propaganda, it always has been and it always will.

erton out.

[snafegeeza]

This doesent look good, two moderates squabbling and trading unwitty insults.

[Krazie]

education is a word that is being thrown around too loosely... no one here in this forum really knows whats going on with NK or with Bush or anything else government related. The media guides us to a way of thinking, its all propaganda, it always has been and it always will.

erton out.

Very very true, I have to agree with you 100%! Good post, Erton..

[Webb]

This doesent look good, two moderates squabbling and trading unwitty insults.

Amen, and this shit is being close to being locked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[aPerfektFIaw]

Very very true, I have to agree with you 100%! Good post, Erton..

If you agree 100% why are you guys arguing?

ahh!! im being dragged into this too...

let me sip on my pina colada and think about nothing

[Krazie]

If you agree 100% why are you guys arguing?

ahh!! im being dragged into this too...

let me sip on my pina colada and think about nothing

I was agreeing with Erton about his media and propaganda stuff. It's true that we really don't know whats going on with Bush, NK, etc.

[Flea]

Dont think about nothing,
Think about naked women.
:)
Heres a link to a north korean news site
Its not been updated in 2 days for some strange reason
http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm

[aPerfektFIaw]

Dont think about nothing,
Think about naked women.
:)
Heres a link to a north korean news site
Its not been updated in 2 days for some strange reason
http://www.kcna.co.jp/index-e.htm

gee i wonder why...

(jennifer anniston)

[graf1k]

You know what? Nevermind Krazie. How old are you, 20 right? That's the kind of thing that's expected from the youth today. You're not different from anyone else your age. Maybe some day when you're older and more mature you'll change your views. Until then, I'm not going to argue with your ignorance.

Legion, because of Bush we went into Iraq and destablized a region that was already unstable. Iraq is going to be in a civil war within the next couple of years and in the mean time the war is dragging this country down into the dumps. We aren't making any kind of progress that matters, American soldiers are dying and we are cutting benefits to their families. Massive tax cuts are being given to large corporations and the rich while wages are stagnant and inflation is on the rise. The only way we are able to fund the war in Iraq is because the government keeps borrowing huge amounts of money from Chinese banks which gives them a major trump card should the government ever want to crack down on China's seriously unfair trade. In the mean time we don't have enough of a military to actually go to war with Iran or North Korea (or anybody else for that matter) if we really needed to. Instead the only option we have is sanctions which is the same thing Republicans gave Clinton shit for doing to Iraq. We've shifted so many troops to the Iraq from the war in Afghanistan (you know, the one that actually has to do with fighting terrorists) that Afghanistan is the fucking wild west and the Taliban are coming back in droves and already control at least half of the country again. We are no closer to shutting down Al Qaeda or catching bin Laden than we were four years ago and in the mean time we've created a bunch of ill will with Muslims that used to be majority pro-Western.

This isn't a Democrat v. Republican thing. Bush is simply a bad President. His policies are bad, he uses signing statements to circumvent the laws he just signs, he has little to no respect for the Bill of Rights if they interfer with his agenda, not to mention the Geneva Conventions. He stands in the way of American progress by severely limiting stem cell research and he acts like a fool calling into question basic ideas of science like global warming and evolution. His politics are dity and underhanded. He achieved the Republican nomination in 2000 because Karl Rove leaked speculation that John McCain's adoptive daughter from Bangladesh was in fact an iligitimate child of McCain's with a black woman. In 2004 they slurred Kerry for speaking out against Vietnam back in the 1960s, despite the fact that Kerry did serve in Vietnam and Bush and Cheney didn't. They convinced a lot of people in this country that he wasn't fit for office because he was a coward and draft dodger when in fact they were instead. They convinced the same people he was part of the rich cultural elite of America and not in touch with the common man when in fact the Bush family is one of the richest in the country and Bush's actions clearly show his as more sympathetic to the rich and big business even though they pander Christian groups by throwing them a bone every now and then (Terry Schivo, banning gay marriage, ect.) and then they act like John Edwards was a monster when he mentioned Cheney's gay daughter in the 2004 debates. As if that White House had never used homosexuality in America for political gains.

So Legion, what have we gotten from Bush in return for all this that is worth it? No terrorist attacks since 9/11? Maybe because there has been no attempts since then. Of course Bush gets a freebie for 9/11 because he only been in office for 9 months by then, hardly enough time to do anything to shore up national security, right? Even if they had a briefing about the hijackers being in America and at flight schools and that bin Laden was planning to attack the United States. They couldn't have done anything about that, right? It was Bill Clinton's fault, right? Because he was got a blow job, right?

And for the record, I'm registered Independent. Not because I 'flip flop' or I'm wishy washy or because I go with the majority, but because I make up my own mind, my own decision and frankly there are good and bad people on each and every side of the isle. I refuse to let myself be put into either parties pocket for something as cheap as most Americans are and I'll be damned if I'll let either side tell me my opinion on something. Frankly no matter which side you align yourself with, if you don't find yourself ever disagreeing with them, you might as well turn your brain off because you're not using it anyway.

[graf1k]

Amen, and this shit is being close to being locked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't see why. If not the Off Topic forums, where do Political discussions belong?

[Webb]

I don't see why. If not the Off Topic forums, where do Political discussions belong?

There's political discussions and people riling each other while it goes no where. I mean, we're talking about NK and everyone jumps on to Bush and his presidency, that is not THE issue.

Just because it's off topic, DOESN'T mean that anything goes. I mean, you have two moderators here squabbling. That isn't a political discussion!

[graf1k]

There's political discussions and people riling each other while it goes no where. I mean, we're talking about NK and everyone jumps on to Bush and his presidency, that is not THE issue.

Just because it's off topic, DOESN'T mean that anything goes. I mean, you have two moderators here squabbling. That isn't a political discussion!

Agreed about the squabbling. But if a topic evolves into something more than it started as, is that such a bad thing? Besides, a topic such as this is bound to sprawl and include many related topics of global politics and the actions of certain world leaders that effect much of the rest of the world.

[Webb]

I welcome a political debate, thats why I started the subject ;) But it needs to stay that way and not let it get personal.

Anyway, back on topic....

NUKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

[graf1k]

NUKES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

http://albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end.php

[Webb]

http://albinoblacksheep.com/flash/end.php

LMFAO!! "Fucking Kangaroos" ROFL :D

But on a serious note, I hope China don't bottle it and stand up to NK. I know they condemned it this morning, lets hope they don't back down from it!

[Flea]

nice post Graf1k,
quite intresting stuff you put there,
I enjoyed reading it,ill watch for more of your thoughts on other subjects from now on.
:)

[Minty]

LMFAO!! "Fucking Kangaroos" ROFL :D

But on a serious note, I hope China don't bottle it and stand up to NK. I know they condemned it this morning, lets hope they don't back down from it!

Damn skippy!!

[graf1k]

nice post Graf1k,
quite intresting stuff you put there,
I enjoyed reading it,ill watch for more of your thoughts on other subjects from now on.
:)

Thanks. But let me warn you that pretty much any topic outside of politics I'm nowhere near as 'with it' or eloquent in what I have to say. The majority of my opinions are about as complex as "tits and football, good; tuition and speeding tickets, bad"

[Flea]

Thanks. But let me warn you that pretty much any topic outside of politics I'm nowhere near as 'with it' or eloquent in what I have to say. The majority of my opinions are about as complex as "tits and football, good; tuition and speeding tickets, bad"

Hooray for tits and as for football you best mean the proper kind and not the cack american kind.
I apologise in advance to any americans offended by me calling their cack american football cack,
But come on they hardly ever kick the ball,Its rugby with pads or as we call it womens rugby.
:p

[Webb]

Hooray for tits and as for football you best mean the proper kind and not the cack american kind.
I apologise in advance to any americans offended by me calling their cack american football cack,
But come on they hardly ever kick the ball,Its rugby with pads or as we call it womens rugby.
:p

How much more off topic can it get :rolleyes: And possibly flameworthy :rolleyes:

Pack it in Flea!

[Flea]

I hit enter by accident it was supposed to end in
Nukes are bad.
:)

I reckon this may just be the 1st step to disaster though,
as soon some other country will think well North Korea has nukes to defend itself,we need some as well.
:(

[TimidKillah]

Screw it.... Press the button and get it over with!! Ever country is getting so edgy with everybody else that, whether intentional or accidental, its gonna happen. Too many high horse egos with itchy trigger fingers. Like I say (see motto below)

[Blind Fool]

Anyone else remember the last of the cold war? If Russia and the US could work that shit out I'm sure this can be sorted.

Yes this is bad, but I think it will get sorted, most people now know nukes are only good in theory.

[Fonkey Monkey]

he gets my vote next election unless the next democrat can step up and prove himself worthy... but the last one that did earned ZERO respect from me.

this is bushs last term as prez :p

[Webb]

this is bushs last term as prez :p

Even I knew that *ahem* 2 terms *ahem* :p

[TimidKillah]

this is bushs last term as prez :p

Damage already done!! Look at the shit storm this nation is in. He's got troops all over the place getting killed. Minding everybody elses biz meanwhile the homefront in is shambles. If he felt the need to spend money, he should have spent repairing this nation. Everybody's starting to hate the US if they don't already. And I'm surprised no one has made a move on him.:uzi: If I had to bet, I'd say he'd be the one to instigate a nuclear war!

[Krazie]

Clinton did some stupid stuff, sure, but outside of his personal life, he was the best president we've had in a couple decades..

[TimidKillah]

Um, Webb? Something I should know? There's a post missing...:confused: Was it too opinionated for this thread/forum?:eek:

[Krazie]

Um, Webb? Something I should know? There's a post missing...:confused: Was it too opinionated for this thread/forum?:eek:

Legion deleted my post too :eek: . Don't know why, dude must really have it bad for Bush, he gets angry when someone says anything bad about him.. Don't know how he manages, because everywhere I go, that's all I hear, lol. Somebody must've undeleted them because they're there again, musta been Webb because I saw them and didn't touch them because I wanted to leave well enough alone and not override legion's authority. Love you legion! Don't hate me cause im a democrat :(

Back on-topic, I'm really interested to see what exactly the UN will say/do after these debates are over..

[Minty]

I undeleted them.

They are off topic, but no more than the rest of this post.

[aPerfektFIaw]

haha really i say just let this all go off topic if it needs to be... but if any bickering over opinions start, then take action... i like to hear other peoples opinions... i DO agree with legion and a few others though

my president is my president and i did vote for him and support him... and he has done more than the media presents him as... i also believe kerry was NOT the lesser of 2 evils in that election... i mean CMON, the guy DID vote to go to war too, but he actually voted against ARMORING the soldiers more to save $$$ ... the guy had his mind on his money and the money on his mind...

but anwyways ive been watchin cnn for a little bit now and it doesnt seem like theres been much progress... hopefully when i wake up it will be different

[Muta32]

The North Koreans will attack the United States in the 2012 presidential election which will start a nuclear war. This will be the start of the apocalypse.

The human race will be wiped out, but the planet earth will be fine. Only Earth's inhabitants will die.

[aPerfektFIaw]

and at least one 360 will survive.... alien lifeforms will find this advanced technology inspiring... we will be born again as martians and be back to playing halo 4 in no time :woop:

[Mr Arrow]

And the punchline is............. It apperas that ol' Kim is having trouble getting it up, so to speak.

They have been able to detect little if any nuclear trace material. So, it was a DUD, or never a nuke to begin with.

When interviewed, all Mr. Kim had to say was - PSYCH!

[SarkeBeeley]

Lol

Now I AM a hippy extremist as Legion called it and all I can say is that if the world was run by women rather than testosterone fuelled men comparing their penis size or who has the biggest balls then we wouldn't be in this predicament. Different countries would just be bitching about each other behind closed doors instead of feeling that they have to prove who is bigger or more powerful!

[snafegeeza]

Lol

Now I AM a hippy extremist as Legion called it and all I can say is that if the world was run by women rather than testosterone fuelled men comparing their penis size or who has the biggest balls then we wouldn't be in this predicament. Different countries would just be bitching about each other behind closed doors instead of feeling that they have to prove who is bigger or more powerful!

POSSIBLY THE MOST RIDICULOUS STATEMENT IVE EVER READ!!!!!! :eek:

[k_dog]

POSSIBLY THE MOST RIDICULOUS STATEMENT IVE EVER READ!!!!!! :eek:

I was thinking the same thing.

On Topic:

Dear god I dread the day I have to wake up and salute a Chinese Flag.

[DaKing240]

Where to start...

First off, Bush is a horrible president. When I say Bush, I mean Bush, and the people pulling him like a puppet, cause lets face it, Bush is a puppet, and the choices he makes are guided by his cabinet and people behind the scenes.

As for my views, I am more Democrat then Republican, but in all honesty, I am neither. If this country wasn't a 2 party system, I wouldn't be either. Republicans are too right wing, and Democrats are too left wing (at times, which is why I disliked Kerry).

The last election was horrible in my opinion, we had 2 people running who both sucked.

Either way, I really do not see how people can like Bush. I can't think of 1 thing that he has done that has been good for our country and our economy. I can't say that our relations with other countries are "good." I can't honestly say that the way we entered the war was appropriate. Was a war necessary - Yes, but in my opinion, to enter a war, we should at least have support from the world so we don't like a country who only cares about our country. The main thing I hate about the Republican view is, they only care about the United States and allies, and don't give a shit about what anyone else thinks.

Oh, and don't even get me started on gay marriage and other issues.

[graf1k]

I undeleted them.

They are off topic, but no more than the rest of this post.

You might want to check that because my first post is most definitely missing.

[Webb]

It wasn't your first on the subject, but I found it, restored it now.

I welcome a political debate people, if it gets personal it WILL be locked, but if it remains on facts and positions that people stand, then it WON'T be locked. Enjoy :)

[Mr Arrow]

The main thing I hate about the Republican view is, they only care about the United States and allies, and don't give a shit about what anyone else thinks.

Do you really mean this?

If so, this is the most pathetic thing ever! We should not care what everyone else thinks! Stand up for yourself man and thanks God you live in a country such as America (or it's allies). Where is your pride?

If North Korea develops nukes where do you think it will end? Do you want to do 'things' to make them like us?

I'm glad this thing was a dud, I hope they blow themselves up trying.

When the Islamic fundametalists have nukes THEY WILL USE THEM. Do you think you can find a way to make them like us???

[DaKing240]

My pride? Who said I didn't love this country?

[Minty]

If so, this is the most pathetic thing ever! We should not care what everyone else thinks! Stand up for yourself man and thanks God you live in a country such as America (or it's allies). Where is your pride?

Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons.....

But why should you have the right to say and feel this, and not little Ting Tong from North Korea??

You are both people, born in your own countries, your human rights are exactly the same. You are trying to make out America is a league above North Korea. Its not- your both countries.

Ever thought that they probably feel exactly the same about the USA having nukes??

Oh- and Sarke. If women were running the world, it would be worse. Youd launch a bomb at someone just because they were seen chatting to another country!!

[graf1k]

Do you really mean this?

If so, this is the most pathetic thing ever! We should not care what everyone else thinks! Stand up for yourself man and thanks God you live in a country such as America (or it's allies). Where is your pride?

If North Korea develops nukes where do you think it will end? Do you want to do 'things' to make them like us?

I'm glad this thing was a dud, I hope they blow themselves up trying.

When the Islamic fundametalists have nukes THEY WILL USE THEM. Do you think you can find a way to make them like us???

First off it's important to take notice of the opinion of the international community. Otherwise you'd have every country in the world with an army doing what they think is best for them which is not the best for the world as a whole collective. That's not to say that the US or allied nations shouldn't watch out for themselves, but that's hardly what Iraq was. Invading Afghanistan certainly was justified. It was where Al Qaeda was, it's where the Taliban who supported Al Qaeda was. Iraq on the other hand had nothing to do with 9/11 or the war on terror. Hell, Bush himself said that a while back (that Iraq and Hussein was not linked to 9/11).

As for North Korea or other rogue states going nuclear, of course none of us want that. But invading Iraq didn't stop anything. If anything, it emboldened North Korea and Iran to continue on with their nuclear programs because they know the United States and it's allies are so bogged down with Iraq that we don't have enough ground troops should we need to do anything other than sanction them.

To use an metaphor, think of the phrase "Speak softly and carry a big stick". Now that's what the US had been doing successfully for quite some time. The threat of force from the United States was enough to keep most countries in line and the few times they crossed that line (Kosovo, Hussein invading Kuwait) we rapped them hard on the knuckles with that stick, to continue the metaphor, and they backed off or folded completely. What we did was Iraq though is break the stick over one trouble makers head. While it effectively took them out of commission, the other trouble makers now know we're walking around with a broken stick. We have no threat of military recourse for their shenanigans anymore and they know it.

[Mr Arrow]

'Ting Tong' lives in a communist country ruled by a dangerous dictator.

Now 'Ting Tong' maybe a nice guy but he is not setting foreign policy.

The difference (and it does make the US better) is that America was intentionally formed to prevent such dictators or governments from receiving such power. It's called freedom and America has worked HARD to EARN it. They should always keep their best interest FIRST, to say anything else is short sighted.

America does MORE THAN ANOTHER COUNTRY TO HELP OTHERS IN NEED, but that does NOT mean bowing to communist (or others) countries.

Most African nations (for example) are run by dictators. The reason their people suffer is their countries own doing, not the US or it's policies.

How the hell do you expect a country to survive if it does not look after it's interests first?

[Minty]

'Ting Tong' lives in a communist country ruled by a dangerous dictator.

Hmmm, pot .... kettle

The difference (and it does make the US better) is that America was intentionally formed to prevent such dictators or governments from receiving such power. It's called freedom and America has worked HARD to EARN it. They should always keep their best interest FIRST, to say anything else is short sighted.

You should keep your interests in your country first. North Korea is doing the same thing.

America does MORE THAN ANOTHER COUNTRY TO HELP OTHERS IN NEED, but that does NOT mean bowing to communist (or others) countries.

Per person, the UK raised more money than you from the public for things like Tsunami etc. Helping people who want help is what counts- that isnt always the US's strong point.

Most African nations (for example) are run by dictators. The reason their people suffer is their countries own doing, not the US or it's policies.

The reason that AFrican people suffer is that Foreign banks loaned them money they needed at a rate they couldnt afford to pay back. Havent you noticed the whole Clear the Debt campaign thats been running for years? The Western world could solve the majority of AFricas problems overnight- but then they would be allowed the opportunity to contest in the worlds aeconomy, which could mean a few wealthy people lose a coupe of pounds.

How the hell do you expect a country to survive if it does not look after it's interests first?

Dunno, Ting Tong is asking the same question.

You do realise that Team America was a piss take dont you, and its not the real world??

[Blind Fool]

America does MORE THAN ANOTHER COUNTRY TO HELP OTHERS IN NEED, but that does NOT mean bowing to communist (or others) countries.How the hell do you expect a country to survive if it does not look after it's interests first?Not being too picky but aren't they kinda mutually exclusive :p

[graf1k]

Most African nations (for example) are run by dictators. The reason their people suffer is their countries own doing, not the US or it's policies.

The dictators seized control in many cases through military coups. That's hardly something you can blame on the average person in those countries. Besides, the reason for so much of the strife in Africa is because the European countries that once occupied and controlled those countries would draw up boarders that would put two or three warring tribes in the same country so that they would never unify and rebel against their European occupiers. Not the United States' doing but certainly not something that just happened either.

[SarkeBeeley]

POSSIBLY THE MOST RIDICULOUS STATEMENT IVE EVER READ!!!!!! :eek:

Well that was a point well argued!?

[CHPwannabe]

does any one notice when we were giving this country food and things they needed there were no nukes and no threats, but since bush has stopped all that look whats happened. all they really want is a bargning chip to help there country. Minty you have an excellent view of how are country works, its sad you arnt in america.

[oVo Pandora oVo]

Interesting topic just had to put in my two cents on this one although alot of you have made my point to a degree. I would quote ya but that would be a long post if I did:)

First off I don't believe we should have gone in to Iraq ( And no not because my hubby is in the army and I didn't want him to get hurt, he's been to them all anyways Kuwait, Bosnia, Kosovo, and Iraq ) We should have put in the amount of forces we did in Iraq into Afghanistan the only country we should have attacked. But we didn't we bombed what little buildings they had, bombed their mountains, then sent in a force that couldn't catch a fly on the wall. Sure they did get alot of the lower level terrorists, but we were there for Bin Laden and surprise surprise no Bin Laden. The media was growing impatient, we were growing impatient, so what other bad guy could we get, where we know where they are, that would look like we are still fighting the war on terror. HMMMMM Saddam yeah lets go get him and make up all kinds of things so the American people and the world will get behind us so we can be justified in attacking him. And it worked everyone concentrated on the war in Iraq and let Bin Laden slip further and further away. To now Afghanistan is now getting back to the way they were before we were there, the Tali ban gaining more control and terrorist gaining their strength again to attack us more frequently. Some of my friends have been seriously wounded in Iraq and I have lost a few friends in Iraq, I don't think these soldiers and the countless others deserved to die for lies this administration has fed them. Why do you think when generals retire all of a sudden they say we shouldn't have gone in. I think even Bush Senior would agree on that because we had them by the balls when he was President and didn't go in why because even he knew it was a stupid idea. Terrorists are in every single country in this world you can not go bombing every country and invading them because they have terrorists.

Side note: If you want to put our military to good use then put them in Africa and stop the genocide that is killing millions of people. That is the true genocide going on in the world. We need to take our blind folds off and do something about it. IMO

Everyone clearly has shown how Bush is a bad president but for those who think he is a good one. I want to know why you think he is a good president? I tend to have more democratic views but I vote for whomever I think will do the best job for this country. And if Gore was to ever run again all he would have to say is " I told you so"

And to get back to what this topic was initially about Nukes and North Korea. North Korea, and Iran and all the other countless countries wanting Nukes and having Nukes that really shouldn't be having them are the New Russia. We were terrified the Russians would launch Nukes on us that they would have drills in school in case a Nuke hit. We hated the Russians, didn't understand why they hated us, and they felt the same way. And the only way the cold war ended really was by talking to them, having an ongoing relationship with them for decades. And it was only by talks, and getting to know each other that the Cold War ended, and now Russia is our friend. For the most part. And their country democratic. Isn't that what we want to achieve around the world? How can you achieve this if ( our administration) we don't even talk to them. You can't achieve this by only showing force and sanctions. You need to start the diplomatic process, if we can end the Cold War a fear we had from the Russians we SHOULD and NEED to be doing everything possible to make that happen today with these countries that hate us even more then the Russians. That is the only way you will get anywhere with these countries. Showing who has the bigger balls will only end in disaster for everyone and perhaps the world. Finally lets not forget we are the only country to ever drop an atomic bomb on another country, so we can't really take the high road with these countries. And that probably makes our job even harder persuading countries not to have nukes.

[graf1k]

Interesting. No offsense CNGMB but I figured you'd be pro-Bush having a spouse in the Armed Forces. Not that all soldiers and their families are Republican but they generally seem to have more conservative leanings. I'm curious, does your husband share your view or is he in favor of the war in Iraq?

Also very pleased to read your opinion that the U.S. should be involved in Africa. It seems most Americans have no problem completely ignoring the genocide going on in western Sudan in the Darfur region. They'll talk about how Saddam Hussein gassed and killed 5,000 of his own citizens (a popular Republican talking point when confronted with the question "Why are we in Iraq?") yet they don't care about a modern day Holocaust going on in Darfur to the tune of approximately 400,000 dead.

[Muta32]

..will only end in disaster for everyone...

Damn Straight!

The North Koreans will attack the United States in the 2012 presidential election which will start a nuclear war. This will be the start of the apocalypse.

The human race will be wiped out, but the planet earth will be fine. Only Earth's inhabitants will die.

The warnings are all around us...

[Webb]

Graf1k man, there is no oil in Darfur now is there ;)

[graf1k]

Graf1k man, there is no oil in Darfur now is there ;)

troof, Webb.

[oVo Pandora oVo]

Well my Husband is not a Republican we both vote for who would do the best job on either side. But I would say we tend to vote more democrat. And You would be surprised at how many soldiers don't think we should be there. Don't get me wrong at the time we attacked Iraq the U.S. was on the lets destroy all who oppose us page, dictators, terrorists, it didn't matter we wanted someone to pay for what they did to us. And I would say alot of the military soldiers were like HOOAH!! Lets teach those MF's a lesson, and of course going off what their leaders were saying feeding into the lies fed them. But now that the dust and haze is clearing they see for their own eyes how this administration misled them, and if you could poll the military I think the majority don't think we should be there. IMO at least most I talk to and they have been there so they know what is really going on.

IMO our military is the greatest force in the world and should be used as a last resort or if we are attacked and when countries need our help to stop genocide. We should never use our troops and put their lives on the line for political purposes. And when you do use them USE THEM and get the job done, not half ass jobs like we are doing in Afghanistan and now Iraq.

[Webb]

IMO our military is the greatest force in the world...

You do realise that Russia and China are part of this world you talk about.

[Muta32]

Me = Republican = Don't like Bush
IMO = Haven't had much to chose from in the past 2 elections (A guy without a personallity, and a man that looks like Mr. Ed)
IMO G.W.B. = Off course as shown below

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/8551/mapde1.gif

[oVo Pandora oVo]

Yes I know that lol Russia is a joke after they broke up their country that can't even keep track of their nukes. China and even North Korea probably would fare better if it was man to man fighting just because they have more of them. But I meant we are the best because we have the best shit and the best trained. We are superior in fire power, equipment etc etc.. we are overall the best force. We can get the job done when used properly that even Russia or China can't do. Plus I believe the core of our soldiers who they are for the most part since our military is voluntary and not this is what you will do or forced into it because that is the only job you can get. They believe in our forces, are more determined, more committed, and will do everything in their power even losing their lives for our country, if you have an army only by force you will get what we got in Iraq soldiers giving up and not fighting for their country. I think North Korea's million man army, majority would give up before the fight ever took place, simply because their leader is crazy and treats his own people like crap. And they want their freedom, everyone wants to be free to choose whatever course they want in life.

[Webb]

China aren't exactly "behind the times". They have the man power and the technology. Know what you say about Russia, but they are still a formidable force. And how can I forget the UK, just cause we're small doesn't mean we ain't strong ;)

I hate to bring this up, but talking about the organisation of the US army, how can you not mention the recent unacceptable amounts of friendly fire and mishaps. I just think that you need to mention the bad with the good when talking about the armies, need a broad perspective.

And before anyone thinks that this was a jibe, which it clearly wasn't, it is an analysis of the facts. Links are below if anyone cares to think otherwise :rolleyes:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/friendlyfire/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2921743.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2921807.stm

I myself can't understand how this happens some of the time. Is it just a break down in communication or what? Baffles me to say the least :(

[oVo Pandora oVo]

I never said China was weak I just meant IMO we are overall the best and yes we have our mishaps ours are just more in the public eye is all.

[Webb]

I never thought you said that :p Just seemed like you were making out that they were only strong because of the numbers they carry. Just wanted to point out their technological stand point too :p

It's not just the public eye though, I mean, in all the last wars or combat they have been involved in, the percentage of friendly fire out of overall death for America is in double figures (16% WWII, Vietnam 14%, Gulf War 23% :eek:, Afghanistan 13% (although they were Canadian soldiers)).

[aPerfektFIaw]

I never thought you said that :p Just seemed like you were making out that they were only strong because of the numbers they carry. Just wanted to point out their technological stand point too :p

It's not just the public eye though, I mean, in all the last wars or combat they have been involved in, the percentage of friendly fire out of overall death for America is in double figures (16% WWII, Vietnam 14%, Gulf War 23% :eek:, Afghanistan 13% (although they were Canadian soldiers)).

Civil War 100% ;)

[Minty]

Yeah to say that America has the best forces is a bit too far. I mean were right yp there with you, and were a little island!!

And we get it right - when fighting in the desert we send the Desert Rats. You send the Marines. Water soldiers :p. No wonder they didnt work very well!!

Our guys are better trained, and a better fighting force overall. ANd everyone knows the SBS and SAS are the most elite in the world.

[Blind Fool]

And we get it right - when fighting in the desert we send the Desert Rats. You send the Marines. Water soldiers :p. No wonder they didnt work very well!! That's true, the clues in the name don't you know :p

Plus we are the undisputed World War champions :p

[Minty]

Havent lost for centuries.

And why didnt we go to Vietnam? Because we wanted all are war films to stay happy!

Plus we single handedly beat the Germans in WW2. And no America- if your not in the fight at the begininng, your not in the fight at all! (plus- how the hell can you be surprised by a hit TWO years into a global conflict!?!)

[robpears]

Yeah great, you send a Nuke to them after they send When Chenobylle happened- the radiation was recorded from New Zealand to Wales. Thats half the damn planet.

Lol thats why all us people from the 80's are so fucked up lol

[Pugnutter]

Havent lost for centuries.

And why didnt we go to Vietnam? Because we wanted all are war films to stay happy!

Plus we single handedly beat the Germans in WW2. And no America- if your not in the fight at the begininng, your not in the fight at all! (plus- how the hell can you be surprised by a hit TWO years into a global conflict!?!)

Fook me minty you trying to start a war lol

on a serious note tho i have had a good look through this post. And all i am seeing is america can do this america can do that, but where all going to pay the price at the end of the day this is a very volitile stituation to be in not that ping pong can do shit about it YET this needs to be sorted out

I also agree with various statments made about who are the u.s.a to say you cant have nukes after all there one of the worst culprits to attack first and ask questions later so who is the dictator in this picture ??

all of our leader's are to blame in one way or another

and about being hit 2 years into a global conflict thats a down to the man called winston churchill so i here;) but thats another story lol

If they realy want to Pop Ping pong Send in The SaS the Real men :uzi:

At the end of the day the americams cant do shit at the moment there troops are spread all over the place quite ironic when you think about it lol

maybe bin laden is best mates with ping pong ??
and this is all part of his masterplan :woop:

[Wreckon Dracgon]

Seems there has been a lot of arguing going on around here while I was away. I'm sure it's all Minty's fault too :)

To throw my two cents in I would say as a proud Republican who voted for Bush both times and would do so again without blinking an eye or a second thought. In our country which is the best place on earth (which all of you should in your hearts feel about your homeland, or to use a great quote "Love it or Get the Hell Out") here we only have two choices really for President a Democrat or Republican and in my opinion and even most of you Democrats would have to agree with this statement in 2000 if Al Gore was elected he would not have been able to handle the events of 9/11 the way they needed to be handled. Bush did exactly what needed to be done, and more importantly he did what should have been done. Whether you agree with what happened in Iraq following the Afghanistan conflict is of no concern. At that moment in time he is what we needed as a President. Should we have gone to war in Iraq yes but not for the reasons given. If Bush came out and said "I feel Saddam is a threat, he tried to have my father killed, and I feel it's in our best interest to take him out" I'm fine with that.

Then in 2004, again a choice between John Kerry and President Bush really isn't a choice. Yes Bush has made mistakes, but as a country in this here and now, between those two choices I choose Bush.

I won't get deep into my views on Foreign policy, as I believe we have way too many issues at home that need solving from Education, Welfare, Social Security, etc... but I do care about the world in which my four little ones will grow up in and North Korea having Nuclear weapons does not paint a pretty picture for the future.

[Webb]

Dracgon man, not arguing, good debate ;) This is how it should be, people issuing their own views on something, then adding something else to it. :D

About time too :drunk

[snafegeeza]

Your right minty but I fear you have been watching a little bit too much Al Murray. ;)

[snafegeeza]

Seems there has been a lot of arguing going on around here while I was away. I'm sure it's all Minty's fault too :)

To throw my two cents in I would say as a proud Republican who voted for Bush both times and would do so again without blinking an eye or a second thought. In our country which is the best place on earth (which all of you should in your hearts feel about your homeland, or to use a great quote "Love it or Get the Hell Out") here we only have two choices really for President a Democrat or Republican and in my opinion and even most of you Democrats would have to agree with this statement in 2000 if Al Gore was elected he would not have been able to handle the events of 9/11 the way they needed to be handled. Bush did exactly what needed to be done, and more importantly he did what should have been done. Whether you agree with what happened in Iraq following the Afghanistan conflict is of no concern. At that moment in time he is what we needed as a President. Should we have gone to war in Iraq yes but not for the reasons given. If Bush came out and said "I feel Saddam is a threat, he tried to have my father killed, and I feel it's in our best interest to take him out" I'm fine with that.

Then in 2004, again a choice between John Kerry and President Bush really isn't a choice. Yes Bush has made mistakes, but as a country in this here and now, between those two choices I choose Bush.

I won't get deep into my views on Foreign policy, as I believe we have way too many issues at home that need solving from Education, Welfare, Social Security, etc... but I do care about the world in which my four little ones will grow up in and North Korea having Nuclear weapons does not paint a pretty picture for the future.

At last, an intelligent person has arrived!!! :woop:

[graf1k]

Seems there has been a lot of arguing going on around here while I was away. I'm sure it's all Minty's fault too :)

To throw my two cents in I would say as a proud Republican who voted for Bush both times and would do so again without blinking an eye or a second thought. In our country which is the best place on earth (which all of you should in your hearts feel about your homeland, or to use a great quote "Love it or Get the Hell Out") here we only have two choices really for President a Democrat or Republican and in my opinion and even most of you Democrats would have to agree with this statement in 2000 if Al Gore was elected he would not have been able to handle the events of 9/11 the way they needed to be handled. Bush did exactly what needed to be done, and more importantly he did what should have been done. Whether you agree with what happened in Iraq following the Afghanistan conflict is of no concern. At that moment in time he is what we needed as a President. Should we have gone to war in Iraq yes but not for the reasons given. If Bush came out and said "I feel Saddam is a threat, he tried to have my father killed, and I feel it's in our best interest to take him out" I'm fine with that.

Then in 2004, again a choice between John Kerry and President Bush really isn't a choice. Yes Bush has made mistakes, but as a country in this here and now, between those two choices I choose Bush.

I won't get deep into my views on Foreign policy, as I believe we have way too many issues at home that need solving from Education, Welfare, Social Security, etc... but I do care about the world in which my four little ones will grow up in and North Korea having Nuclear weapons does not paint a pretty picture for the future.

I don't understand this opinion on Al Gore. I've heard it plenty before but I just don't get it. What exactly about Al Gore makes everybody think he wouldn't have been capable to go to war in Afghanistan? Because he doesn't trim brush on a ranch? Because he talks about silly things like global warming? Please. No matter who was president at the time we would have invaded Afghanistan. It was clear thats where Al Qaeda was and that Afghanistan was a hotbed for terrorist training and activity. Al Gore could have handled Afghanistan just as well as Bush. I think the better question is why didn't Bush handle Katrina as well as Al Gore would have?

Then to say that going to war with Iraq 'is of no concern' is ridiculous. That's like saying "well, I fixed the loose shelf in kitchen but I blew up the living room in the process, but that shouldn't matter". Now maybe in your opinion the fact that Bush had a grudge with Saddam because he went after his old man is reason enough for you to be okay with the war in Iraq, but it's not for the majority of Americans or he would have said what you said he should have and no one would have supported the war in Iraq. Hell, he played trial and error as to why we should have invaded Iraq anyway. "Oh, they didn't go for that? Let's try this." The United States military isn't the Bush families personal army to settle old scores and make their friends richer in the process.

And again, these blanket statements about John Kerry not even being an option in 2004. Why exactly? Because the Republican party came up with a catchy phrase everytime Kerry said a word? (FLIP FLOP, FLIP FLOP)

[Muta32]

Here is a timeline for what will happen in the future:

2010 - Third World War. H-bombs used. Biological warfare causes the ‘boils’ pestilence. An asteroid falls, having broken up into three pieces, on California, Utah and western Nevada. California floods and sinks. The Earth’s crust slips relative to the rotation axis, giving a five-degree pole shift.

2011 - Three more asteroids hit Russia, causing a 10° pole shift.

2012 - An additional three asteroids strike China, causing another 10° pole shift. Japan and the Philippines are lost underwater...

...that is the planet on standby

[IMportdreams95]

Here is a timeline for what will happen in the future:

2010 - Third World War. H-bombs used. Biological warfare causes the ‘boils’ pestilence. An asteroid falls, having broken up into three pieces, on California, Utah and western Nevada. California floods and sinks. The Earth’s crust slips relative to the rotation axis, giving a five-degree pole shift.

2011 - Three more asteroids hit Russia, causing a 10° pole shift.

2012 - An additional three asteroids strike China, causing another 10° pole shift. Japan and the Philippines are lost underwater...

...that is the planet on standby


Are you ok? So your can see into the future now? cool... hey i got a question for you., am i going to get 1,000 GS in Saintsrow?

[Webb]

Are you ok? So your can see into the future now? cool... hey i got a question for you., am i going to get 1,000 GS in Saintsrow?

Well he predicted something different the other day for 2012, so I'd wish he'd make up his mind :p lol :D

[Wreckon Dracgon]

Flip Flop Flip Flop I loved those commercials.

And graf1k you misunderstand my saying that Iraq was of no concern. The Iraq war started during his presidency and it's not like we can change Presidents midterm without a hailstorm of reasoning. I personally think he did the right thing by getting Suddam out. Yes his reasonings were wrong but in the end what was needed to be done (again in my opinion) was done. My point is and as I said IMO if you ask me to pick between Bush, Kerry, and Gore. I'm picking Bush each time.

There's really no need to go back and forth on points you have yours and I have mine. Both are vaild because they are our on personal feelings and beliefs. Enjoy yours as I do mine.

[Muta32]

Well he predicted something different the other day for 2012, so I'd wish he'd make up his mind

Yea...different predictions and prophecies from different cultures.

Are you ok? So your can see into the future now? cool... hey i got a question for you., am i going to get 1,000 GS in Saintsrow?

I'm not the one looking into the future. I am just the one saying what different predictions and prophecies have been made. I don't see any reason for you to mock me. I can't recall anytime that I have ever mocked you.
You can believe what you want, and I can believe what you want. I'm not forcing you to believe what I've posted, just putting what I believe to allow people to read what I think will happen.

[Webb]

Yea...different predictions and prophecies from different cultures

So eventually, you will cover every possible combination known to man and you will surely get one right :p

[graf1k]

Flip Flop Flip Flop I loved those commercials.

And graf1k you misunderstand my saying that Iraq was of no concern. The Iraq war started during his presidency and it's not like we can change Presidents midterm without a hailstorm of reasoning. I personally think he did the right thing by getting Suddam out. Yes his reasonings were wrong but in the end what was needed to be done (again in my opinion) was done. My point is and as I said IMO if you ask me to pick between Bush, Kerry, and Gore. I'm picking Bush each time.

There's really no need to go back and forth on points you have yours and I have mine. Both are vaild because they are our on personal feelings and beliefs. Enjoy yours as I do mine.

I have no problem with people having a differing feeling or opinion about who should be President or anything like that, but I would like to hear why people like you or Legion for instance would write off Kerry or Gore. Not because I want you guys to justify your opinions to me but because I just don't see why myself and I'd like to understand why.

As for reasoning about relecting Bush because he started it, ect. I guess I can kind of understand that, but at the same time this war in Iraq will last long after Bush is out of office so I don't really understand relecting him if that's the logic behind it.

[Muta32]

So eventually, you will cover every possible combination known to man

I might.http://forums.filefront.com/images/smilies/bandit.gif

[IMportdreams95]

Yea...different predictions and prophecies from different cultures.

I'm not the one looking into the future. I am just the one saying what different predictions and prophecies have been made. I don't see any reason for you to mock me. I can't recall anytime that I have ever mocked you.
You can believe what you want, and I can believe what you want. I'm not forcing you to believe what I've posted, just putting what I believe to allow people to read what I think will happen.

i wasn't meaning to mock you or make you mad. Simply trying too make light of the situation as i have a youngster soon to be two living in thes world, and honest to god i am scared that the world is coming to an end. Once again just trying to make light of the situation.. My appoliges. :o

[oVo Pandora oVo]

I just have one thing to say about people assuming Gore or any other democrat wouldn't have done anything about 911. You can't honestly believe any President doesn't matter what party they belong to wouldn't have gone into Afghanistan that is just ridiculous. There is such a thing called an appropriate response. 911 was an attack on our country they used our own planes and shoved them back in our face. You don't think a democrat wouldn't have attacked back perhaps with even more force oh yeah and perhaps maybe we would have caught Bin Laden because we would have stayed to get the job done. Need I remind people that not too long ago when Clinton was in office we went into Bosnia and Kosovo to stop the genocide from going on. Did we have any interests at all with Bosnia or Kosovo they have no oil. No we didn't but a democrat sent our military in to help stop the mass killing. Before people start attacking democrats thinking they can't handle a war just think about what would be different if Gore was President. We would have stayed in Afghanistan, perhaps Bin Laden would be dead, we wouldn't go attack Iraq, causing an even bigger mess, having more people hate us, creating more terrorists, and causing a Civil War and having our troops be there for more years then they need to be. Also more talks would go forth among North Korea and Iran, because those are the real threats. Bush pretty much killed that by calling them "evil doers" (how intelligent is that phrase) Oh and because Gore believes in saving our environment perhaps even getting closer to being independent from foreign oil. I could go on about how different our country would be but that would be a long post.
I still have no clue as to why people think Bush is this great President, republicans were all to eager and wasted millions of dollars to impeach a democrat for having sex then lying about having sex with an intern. Big whoop, Bush has done far worse that effects US Americans but no impeachment go figure. It's ok to be a proud Republican but to use an old phrase " if your Republican President jumps off a bridge you going to follow" doesn't make sense to stand behind someone just because they are Republican. The man is an idiot, he is shady as they come, the rich are getting richer and poor poorer, our economy sucks, surplus to defeciet sure 911 had a big part with that but not all. He can't even help our own americans get food and water when a disaster happened and wiped out a whole city, what would happen if a Nuke hit would our government be there for you. But then this is my opinion I can't stand the man but I can at least say why I don't like him, still waiting for any kind of response as to why people like him. What good has he really done for this country?


http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2000a.html happy reading

[Wreckon Dracgon]

Friends should never talk politics it never ends well.

For me, and I repeat for me my quality of life is better now than when Clinton was in office. I also believe that my quality of life is better now than it would be if Gore or Kerry was in office. Why because of bills and laws that Bush and a Republican controlled congress have pushed through that makes my quality of life better.

You make a statement that I hear so many people say that I have such a huge problem with

the rich are getting richer and poor poorer

I'm going to pose a couple scenarios to you and I want you to tell me if these are fair or not.

Scenario One

A guy lets say his name is I don't know Michael. Michael has a wife, four kids, works hard every day, has a good job, and invests his money well. Two of Michael's kids are four and five and about to start elementary Pre-K.
Now because Michael makes too much money in order to send his kids to school a public school he must pay a tuition for them to attend. In addition they are required to pay for breakfast and lunch ($1.75 & $2.50 per day each). Michael has a tax bill every year of somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 - 100K. Of course these tax dollars are what fund this public education.

Then there is Julio, Julio is an immigrant who illegally crossed over into the United States. Julio sends his three children, two nephews, and one niece to this same school. Julio pays no taxes so therefore funds this school in no way, Julio's children, nephews, and niece also get free breakfast and lunch. Also Julio's kids "speak a no good english" and therefore takes up too much of the teachers time.

Then there is Shawanda who has eight kids by four different men, collects welfare, sends her eight kids to the same school, all of whom get free everything, Shawanda gets a job every now and then so that she can file taxes each year and with her eight kids and low income even though she only has taxes withheld of $858 she gets a refund check for $5,500.

Is this fair?

Scenario Two

There is a beautiful beach front timeshare. This timeshare costs $1.2 million per year. There are 12 investors in this time share. Two pay $200,000, four pay $100,000, four investors pay $75,000, two investors pay $50,000.
Now when it comes time to divide the time allotments which of the two options below is fair.

Option 1
Two - $200k investors each get - 2 Months
Four - $100k investors each get - 1 Month
Four - $75k investors each get - 3 Weeks
Two - $50k investors each get - 2 Weeks

Option 2
All twelve investors each get one month

[oVo Pandora oVo]

Well the rich are getting richer and the working middle class are getting further and further behind they are the new working poor. The Gap is getting bigger and you can look that up yourself that is not new news there. And so you point out the welfare and illegal aliens that has been around for decades there is nothing new about that at all. That is all over the world, and your pal Bush wants to give 11 million illegal aliens citizenship where now they would be legal and getting even more of our money. You pose these scenarios and sure I can see your point. But here is another scenario for you, say you have a family of 4 you your wife and 2 kids, you and your wife work full time, and you are forced to get a second job just to make ends meet because your job only pays slightly higher then min wage. You can barely afford your kids and all there needs not to mention all your necessity bills, food, rent, etc.. now you see the wealthy getting bigger breaks, while you are struggling to make ends meet. I say to you if you make over a million a year then I am sorry but you should have to pay more in taxes why give you a bigger break you are already rich and I am sure plenty of wealthy people already try and get as many things deducted as it is so you don't have to pay. But it isn't the poor or the rich that are suffering the most it is the working middle class, they are slipping further and further behind why should they have to suffer more so the wealthy can keep more of there money. When Clinton was in office the working middle class had a better life more jobs better wages more prosperity, now not so much. Another thing since when do you have to pay to go to public school, I can't think of a single state that charges you money to go to a public school if you make alot of money. Those are called private schools or other religion based schools, not public. And that is a parents choice to send your kid to a private school.
Is that the only reason you like Bush?

One more thing to add you say your quality of life is better with Bush as President, and I say my quality of life is much worse because Bush is President. Don't forget you are not the only one who has to pay for Welfare and Illegal Aliens we do as well only difference is maybe you can't afford to take a trip, where the middle class can't afford their basic needs.

[Wreckon Dracgon]

Okay you misunderstand the taxing system and the point of my timeshare analogy. When they say Bush is giving a tax break, or tax money back to the rich in excessive of $5 billion to those people that make over $300,000, while the people that make less that $65,000 are only getting $100 million. There is nothing wrong with that breakdown. That $5 billion in breaks is nothing in comparison to the $485 billion in taxes that we pay. It's only about 1%. Where as the $100 million in breaks is over 15% of what the $65,000 and less contribute.

If my tax bill is $100,000 for 2005 and yours is a refund of $1,000 and Bush changes it to where I only pay $75,000 and you get a refund of $1,250. We both have been given a $25% break. But the way the Democrats will say it and the way you understand it is Bush just gave the rich $25,000, while only giving the poor $250. If I'm paying more of the taxes and burdening more of the load when a break is given I should be given a larger share. Democrats like Gore and Kerry would like to see my tax bill go to $125,000 and give you $5,000 back.

And when I say you I don't mean you... I'm just speaking in relative terms.

And no this is not the only reason I like Bush, over Kerry and Gore. When it comes to my core set of values, Bush and I would share more of those than Gore or Kerry. Do I agree with everything he does no, do I like all the choices he's made no. Also the only reason the immigration issue is at the point that Bush and the Republicans are willing to allow any concessions for the illegal immigrants is because of Democrats threats to block other bills if some supportive language is not included in the bill.

[oVo Pandora oVo]

If I'm not mistaken the top 1% in the US meaning the wealthy get a 35% tax cut not 1 % and just think about this for a sec, when Clinton was in office sure the middle class had a better tax cut, but the wealthy still had a modest cut. Now as a result of this the working class had more in their pockets to spend, that boosted our economy and as a result our government started getting surpluses, which was paying off our national debt or at least some of that money was going for that. Things were going well they even had a projected date of when our defeciet would be paid off the yr 2013 which isn't that far away. Now think about long term here, you pay more now to pay less later. No defeciet means more money in all of our pockets, and the better our country would be off as a whole. That is the win win scenario so if I was wealthy I wouldn't mind paying more to pay less later.

[Wreckon Dracgon]

The bill gives 35% of the TOTAL tax benefits to the top 1% of taxpayers (anyone making over $373,000). Of that TOTAL we contribute more than 35% to that TOTAL.

The average benefit to this top 1% is only $44,000 year. Which in comparison to what you (again not you) are getting back % wise is still not equal. $20 to you is not $20 to the next person.

Let's not forget that I'm sure your regular payday taxes withheld are only about 10-15% of what you make, where as mine is almost 40%.

And lets not talk about stocks where I pay 35% of the value on every transaction in taxes. If I have the assets to buy 10,000 shares of a company that goes up $2 in a week and I sell the stock. Why do I need to give the governement almost $8,000 in taxes because Julio can't take care of his kids? It's not fair.

And the point of all of my posts this morning remains the same. In simple terms it is not my responsibility to take care of Julio's kids. Gore and Kerry want me to make sure they are feed, and clothe, and get a good education, and have healthcare, and when they retire have social security. I have four children of my own to worry about. I don't have time to worry about nor do I care about Julio.

[graf1k]

Okay you misunderstand the taxing system and the point of my timeshare analogy. When they say Bush is giving a tax break, or tax money back to the rich in excessive of $5 billion to those people that make over $300,000, while the people that make less that $65,000 are only getting $100 million. There is nothing wrong with that breakdown. That $5 billion in breaks is nothing in comparison to the $485 billion in taxes that we pay. It's only about 1%. Where as the $100 million in breaks is over 15% of what the $65,000 and less contribute.

If my tax bill is $100,000 for 2005 and yours is a refund of $1,000 and Bush changes it to where I only pay $75,000 and you get a refund of $1,250. We both have been given a $25% break. But the way the Democrats will say it and the way you understand it is Bush just gave the rich $25,000, while only giving the poor $250. If I'm paying more of the taxes and burdening more of the load when a break is given I should be given a larger share. Democrats like Gore and Kerry would like to see my tax bill go to $125,000 and give you $5,000 back.

The problem with your analogy though is when the richest 1% get that same 25% tax cut and everyone else gets a smaller percentage tax cut or none at all. And whether or not they like to hear it or want to believe it, it is only fair that the richest 5-10% pay more in taxes when they hold 90% of the wealth in this country.

As for example of the schools I certainly would agree that illegal immigrants shouldn't be allowed to send their kids to school free. Hell, I don't think they should be here at all i they crossed into the country illegally. My mother immigrated here from Germany in the 70s and she had to go through all the paperwork and hassle of legal immigration so I don't have much sympathy for people that break the law to get in. That said, illegal immigration isn't the fault of just Democrats. Republicans are just as guilty. They've let it go on for years and didn't do anything about it. They've had control of the house, Senate & White House for nearly 6 full years without doing anything about it and despite what Republicans would have people believe, they were NOT powerless before this. But instead of doing something about it, Republicans decided to woo the immigrant Hispanic vote, particularly that of the Cuban-Americans in Florida (no, this doesn't have anything to do with the 2000 elections so don't even start that). On top of that Republicans didn't and continue not to do anything about illegal immigration because American business profits heavily from illegal labor and continues to increase their revenue and those business owners contribute heavily to the Republicans via political contributions. It's ridiculous for the wealthy to expect to be able to have it both ways. They can't expect to take jobs away from actual Americans and give them to illegals to boost their profits and then expect everybody but themselves and their ilk to have to foot the bill for all the social services these new illegal immigrants require.

[snafegeeza]

Im no good at maths!!!! :eek:

[Mr Arrow]

Im no good at maths!!!! :eek:

lol

Lucky for you the goverment is - I'm sure they'll ket you know what you owe :mad: